Ethics and Websites like this one ( Are they bad for programmers?) 9

[guestgulkan]

I see a lot of questions/request for help from programmers
to this website (and relevant newsgroups), that make me
think:

a. The questioner has not bothered himself/herself to
analyse the problem.
They have not tried to use the supplied
help files or anything - just straight to the website!

b. They want the website to do their homework for them.
[They may pass the assignment - but have they learnt anything??]

c. They want the website to do their jobs for them.
[No doubt telling their bosses - 'Look how good I am".]

Am I being over-critical ??

 

[Kjonnnn]

Hmmm.

Can anyone person possibly be up on the everything in the computer industry at the speed it changes.. No.

I'm not a programmer. I only been in IT a few years. You HAVE to asked for the input of others. Real World IT is nothing like the text book. I have had problems come up that weren't remotely covered any class I took. And I think most times with people post for assistance they're at the end of their rope.

As far as cheaters and homework... cheaters ALWAYS get caught. They may do great on a test, but they will pay at some point in the future because they didnt do the work for themselves.... so let them cheat. Its their mistake.

 

[apex1x]

I've seen similar posts like this where a couple members get frustrated with entry level users who dont know what they're doing. I think the solution to the orginal question/problem is quite simple:
USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT

This includes:
-Flagging users trying to get others to do homework for them.
-Adding a star to posts that you find useful/helpful
-Assessing a post to determine how much/little information to give.

Just remember that not only the original poster will use your advice and if someone uses this advice for a quick-fix, then it is NOT your problem.

I for one appreciate the help that you guys/gals give and keep up the great work! ~Apex1x
Sattinger's Law:
It works better if you plug it in.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Kjonnnn - Cheaters always get caught ... so let them cheat.

No. I will not be a knowing party to any type of cheating. I have, and will continue without hesitation to red-flag inappropriate homework and/or job post where the individual is trying to get someone else to do the work for them.

Whereas cheaters do usually get caught, they in the meantime are giving the industry, and the professionals in it, a bad name and reputation. How many post have you read in these fora about the slug with a degree?. Even worse, some of them are taking jobs away from indivudals who have worked hard to learn what they know and are struggling.

No, I will NOT knowingly let them cheat, not now, not ever. As unprofessional as it is to cheat, so it is also to aid the cheater. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Kjonnnn]

Maybe I missed something.

What does homework mean in the context you all are using it.

If someone asks a question and I can help, I try to. I don't ask if this is a school project or work project.

I must not be understanding this conversation.

I many people come here to get answers who have been thrown into the position by their bosses and really don't have any training.

Again, I must be missing something sorry I added my 2 cents.

 

[sleipnir214]

And so if they're not in over their heads in a job, we're supposed to provide that training? ______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!

 

[svanels]

I have nothing against homework, I like to help students, what I don't like is the typical structure:

Write a program that does etc... The guy doesn't take the time to rewrite the task. In most cases it must be handed over the next day. Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[CajunCenturion]

The problem is not with homework per se. The problem is when someone wants you to do the work. And it doesn't matter whether its homework or businesswork. There is a big difference between asking for help, and asking for the finished code. I'll provide help to anyone, but I'll not complete their assignment.

The gray area is when you post sample code, similar to that which you would find in MSDN, to illustrate a point and/or concept. Now you have to ask yourself if this code is providing the solution, or explaining the use of a function. That, imho, is the tough line to draw. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Tarwn]

I've been out of town and missed this debate, but I'd like to throw in my two cents now:
I have to agree with all sides here.
1) There is a minority group of people who post and post and post, expecting refined, perfectly working, coded solutions to there problems. In fact I have seen and been part of cases where a user will accept a solution and than complain about an unknown error in it (ie, missing quotes or a missing semi-colon). Sometimes I correct it, sometimes I leave it, depending on my mood.
2) Helping people with examples and advice, or a piece of pseudocode, often answers their general questions better than giving them full working code. Sometimes they will come back and ask more speific questions, but tht is what we are here for.
3) I don't mind students doing homework as long as the questions is, "Where do I start?" or "I already wrote these 500 lines and I am getting an error..." or similar questions, and they are not expecting us to more than give them advice for the first and minor fixes for the second (depending on scope of error).

I think the poblem we are actually looking at here has been stated above. People who expect the large amounts of working code as answers. Yes this may make them look a little better to their employer/whoever, but what happens when they are suddenly asked to work with someone else, or their questions aren't answered by deadline time? If they depend on us to do their work for them, they will be let down. We don't know everything, we take breaks, we try to answer with examples rather than exact code, etc.

As a side note, a few weeks back onpnt and I were helping someone one who was posting for about 50% of one of our forums and after a great deal of helps (probably 90% of their code written by the two of us) they started asking questions on how to sell things like what they were working on. If I remember correctly the user got two smart answers from myself and onpnt and no other answers.


-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Can't...think...of...anything...funny...to.........say............
need.....coffee....................

 

[edfair]

I probably would restate some of this as:
Some come here wanting help learning or doing something,
some come wanting us to work for them,
some come wanting us to think for them,
some come wanting us to think and do for them.

I'm here to help those who need help or guidance, not the others.
Ed Fair
unixstuff@juno.com
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[infinitelo]

i may be putting an iron in the fire that doesnt belong, but... i gain a lot from looking at some of those homework/save my job questions any post you read has the potential of solving a problem you will run into later. in a science where simple solutions are the best for complex problems the basics are where you start.

we must balance the free flow of converstion, posts, with our ethical choices. if it is to be it's up to me

 

[diodotus]

Is it unethical for a lazy ditch-digger to ask another man to do his work for him?

I think not. It would be unethical if the ditch-digger expects another to do his work for him, or gets angry if nobody else does his work for him. But asking never hurts.

Is it unethical for a person who enjoys digging ditches to offer to dig one for a person who doesn't like to dig ditches?

I think not.

But what about a future emplyer, who expects the first man to be good at digging ditches -- only because other men have always dug his ditches for him? Perhaps the men who enjoy digging ditches are hurting the future employer?

If I were an employer who needed ditches dug, it seems to me that I am just as well off hiring a man who is able to inspire others to dig my ditches, as I would be hiring a man to dig my ditches myself; surely the man who asks others to do his work for him is no less/more ethical than I am as an employer asking him to dig my ditches for me. And while it is true that the man who is able to cajole others into digging ditches may lose that gift, it is also possible that a man with a good strong back will throw it out.

Surely there is good for people making a decision to have maximum information. But to stop doing things that you[/] enjoy because you fear that you are leading to the moral degredation of the man who doesn't enjoy or have time for it... Well, that sounds more than a little anal retentive -- another person's tastes and pleasures are not my affair unless I can see that s/he is directly hurting another by her/his choices.
-- Scott David Gray
reply-to: sgray@sudval.org

http://www.unseelie.org

 

[svanels]

If I were an employer who needed ditches dug, it seems to me that I am just as well off hiring a man who is able to inspire others to dig my ditches.

Not from an economical point of view, because I would have to hire also the diggers for the digging motivator. Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[CajunCenturion]

The last several posts have focussed on the ethical behavior of the person asking for help.

But take a look at the flip side. What are the ethical issue with respect to the person who answers the question?

diodotus posed the question Is it unethical for a person who enjoys digging ditches to offer to dig one for a person who doesn't like to dig ditches? to which he responded I think not.

Are you sure, what is the ditch being used for? Without knowing the why, I cannot in good consicious state that it would ethical for me to dig it form him. As a case in point (although rather extreme), what if the ditch is being used to bury stolen property? Now is it ethical to dig the ditch for him? In this case, I think not. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[guestgulkan]

I think you can do too much for people!
If a man is getting paid to dig ditches - as far as I'm concerned he's paid to do the job so he should do the work.
I'm quite prepared to lend him a shovel or spade,
or direct him to the nearest hardware store.

GuestGulkan - who has actually dug some ditches in his time!

 

[diodotus]

CajunCenturion writes:

Are you sure, what is the ditch being used for? Without knowing the why, I cannot in good consicious state that it would ethical for me to dig it form him. As a case in point (although rather extreme), what if the ditch is being used to bury stolen property? Now is it ethical to dig the ditch for him? In this case, I think not.

I guess that if I have cause to believe that a program I write or ditch I dig would be used for unethical purposes, it behooves me to find out more about the situation. But my obligation to look into the background of the asker goes down, to the extent that the code is apparently innocuous. Being asked to write code to flood port 110 of random machines should give one pause -- but I wouldn't worry about code for a web-counter.

But we are straying far afield here. If we accept your criticism that it may always be wrong to put effort towards some project that you know the details of . . . Then it must be unethical to help your fellow man with advice about where FAQ files are and/or starting ideas on how to help her/him with her/his work unless you know exactly what that work is.

I guess that it seems to me acceptible to assume that your volunteer work will not place others directly in harm's way, unless you have cause to suspect otherwise. Else, it would be immoral to help an old lady accross the street without first verifying that she does not intend harm or discomfort to persons on the other side of the street.
-- Scott David Gray
reply-to: sgray@sudval.org

http://www.unseelie.org

 

[diodotus]

I have volunteered to dig ditches in the past. I recall several professors and archaeologists who were paid a good bit of money to dig ditches in order to uncover artifacts from the Hyksos period in an area near the current-day Lebanese-Israeli border. They were paid to dig ditches -- and I volunteered to help them (and did a good bit more of the pickaxe-and-bucket wielding than any of them).

Different people may have different tastes about how much work is/is not appropriate to do for someone else in a voluntary way, when/if that other person is paid to do the job. But I reject the idea that there is an abstract ethical standard which declares that at a certain point it becomes unethical to do work that someone else is paid to do, rather than simply unwise.
-- Scott David Gray
reply-to: sgray@sudval.org

http://www.unseelie.org

 

[CajunCenturion]

Certainly the example I gave is extreme, as I stated, but it was to used to illustrate a point, that being to use some common sense before offering post. Most of the time its quite obvious when its right to help and/or right not to help.

I get real concerned when people make blanket statements without considering all of the implications. I never stated that may always be wrong, but rather implied that sometimes it may be wrong, and that we should apply a little common sense before jumping right in. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[apex1x]

Wow, that notification via email has come up about ten times since I last checked!
First of all, I think we are taking the "digging ditches" analogy a little too far. We are starting to get into the fallacy of the continuum or "slippery slope". To better explain, lets take the temperature scale for an example.

Can we distinguish between what is "hot" and what is "cold"?? For sure we can. The problem occurs though when we must define what is hot and what is cold. Like the "slippery slope", once we start sliding down, is it really logical to stick the ice pick in at any particular point? Probably not. Is 40 degrees hot, is 30 degrees still hot, is 20 degrees still hot? Whether it's temperatures, money, or even ethics such as in this discussion, we must really use our own judgment and standards. There is no "set criteria" as many of you are trying to get at.

I completely agree with diodosus and a couple others have really good points. The idea is to help people here, not tear them apart for being very direct or specific in their questions. ~Apex1x
Miller's Law:
You can't tell how deep a puddle is until you step into it.

 

[svanels]

"The idea is to help people here, not tear them apart for being very direct or specific in their questions." Right on apex1x, that is tek-tips spirit. You have always the right to ignore or red flag the question. If you have to analyze in detail everything anybody tells or ask you, it is time to look for some (medical) mental assistance. Soon you will be seeing conspiracy plots and terrorists everywhere. Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[sleipnir214]

<sarcasm>
You mean there aren't conspiracy plots everywhere?
</sarcasm> ______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!