Ethics and Websites like this one ( Are they bad for programmers?) 9

[guestgulkan]

I see a lot of questions/request for help from programmers
to this website (and relevant newsgroups), that make me
think:

a. The questioner has not bothered himself/herself to
analyse the problem.
They have not tried to use the supplied
help files or anything - just straight to the website!

b. They want the website to do their homework for them.
[They may pass the assignment - but have they learnt anything??]

c. They want the website to do their jobs for them.
[No doubt telling their bosses - 'Look how good I am".]

Am I being over-critical ??

 

[svanels]

Yes, not all of the questioners are in the categories you cited, and I wouldn't call the ones that fit programmers at all.

There are lots of way to ban lazy students, red flagging is one of them.

If they have not learned anything is not our headache.

I do not do homework and a lot of my fellow members neither.

By the way what would tek-tips be without the questions and discussions? Boring!!! Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[onpnt]

I think you are being over critical
I don't think the majority of users here (programmers) are at all like this. I in fact think this is more like the best help file they could possibly ever have access too.
I know that when I attempt to help another user here that I will do my best to explain what it is I'm showing them and or I will simply give them a example that would in fact if performed the same way in their code would fix the problem. That I feel is the best teacher. A example! Yes help files have these but sometimes they are not in the same sequence as what they may be trying to attempt.

As for the students, they hurt themselves! If they get through the site without one of us noticing the "assignment" they are trying to get fixed or written for them, then they will either graduate a idiot with little knowledge of what they should know and lose their first job after not knowing the basics of anything due to never actually learning it or never go anywhere in the field until they manage to teach themselves everything they missed in school and get left behind.

I don't think most want the ones that come to help here to do their jobs. Sure there will be a few, but I really don't see that being a issue. I don't think I've seen many threads that asked for a program or script written for them that actually had someone post that exact request. More so they are flagged or given links to tutorials, examples and open source etc..
A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

admin@onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[cdogg]

I think it would be unfair to criticize a majority of programmers that use this site and other sites like this one. Sure, you're always going to have a few stragglers here and there that are looking for the easy way out (homework assignments, business-oriented projects, etc). But do you really feel that those problems encapsulate the entire site?

I suggest that the answer to your questions relies heavily on how the posts are answered. Any question should be considered acceptable. However, those who answer the easy questions need to assess the content and provide an answer that still challenges the inquirer (or ignore them altogether). That's how I assign the responsibility. There's no reason a few slackers should ruin the atmosphere for the rest of us. Remember: Everyone started some where and we should show some lenience to those who truly need it.

That's my 2¢ anyway...
~cdogg

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
- A. Einstein

 

[CajunCenturion]

To post some thoughts relavent to your questions, not necessarily in order-

b. They want the website to do their homework for them. [They may pass the assignment - but have they learnt anything??]

I agree that there are a number of homework assignments, but I don't necessarily agree that just because they're homework, that they should not be addressed. It depends on just how much the student has already done. Its a fine line between doing the homework, and helping with the homework. Did you, when you were an upperclassperson in school, do the homework for an underclassperson. But did you provide help to the underclassmen? Tek-Tips should be no different. Answer the question in the same manner that you would have as a senior if a freshman had come up to you and asked the same question. Did they learn anything? Who knows, that hard to say. On the one hand, your point is well taken, but on the other hand, have you learned anything from the answers that you've received to your questions? Again, I don't do their work for them, but providing guidance and help is reasonable.

c. They want the website to do their jobs for them. [No doubt telling their bosses - 'Look how good I am".]

In many ways, the answer is the same as the one above. Put yourself in the entry-level position, and in the supervisor position, and view the question from both perspectives. Tek-Tips is a resource, as are help files and manuals. One cannot fault someone for taking advantage of the resources at their disposal. After all, they did get the job done. One could argue that the employee is good because they used the available resources to get the job done. But again, I personally will not do the work for you, and neither should you. But if you approach each question with the attitude that you are the supervisor, and one of your junior-level associates has face-to-face asked you the same question, how would you answer it. I submit that you should answer it the same way here.

a. The questioner has not bothered himself/herself to analyse the problem. They have not tried to use the supplied help files or anything - just straight to the webite!

You're the supervisor, and your charge has asked the question - what's your answer.

Abuse of the Tek-Tips system is just as much a responsibility of all of us who answer and how we answer the questions as it is to those who ask. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Zarcom]

I don't think you are being over critical. It is the case of the silent majority. You notice the slackers and generally lazy people because the post stick out. Some of them because they ask a million questions. I have seen here and there in this site a forum that is almost diminated by one or two users because they are asking a billion and one questions.

At that point I think that people need to utilize other resources such as researching a problem before asking. If you have truly tried to find a solution and came up blank, then this is an excellent place for info. However, I don't think it should be considered a first reference. Why? because the other members, the ones answering questions aren't being paid to do so. And often they may go do the research for you to find an answer to your question.

Onpnt and Cdogg you both mentioned majority when you disagreed with guestgulkan. He did not however once mention that he thought this was a majority issue. Merely something he has noticed. See Silent Majority bit. As I have said I agree with him.

My 3 cents That'l do donkey, that'l do
Mark
If you are unsure of forum etiquette check here faq796-2540

 

[onpnt]

I think the word they in itself insinuates the majority of postees. That was the basis of my reply and thoughts. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

admin@onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[Zarcom]

Heh heh
Never ASSUME
It makes an ASS out of U and ME! That'l do donkey, that'l do
Mark
If you are unsure of forum etiquette check here faq796-2540

 

[cdogg]

Zarcom,
He said: "I see a lot of questions/request for help"

To me, that insinuates majority as if it's a problem. I was addressing it as so. Besides, I asked the question in my previous post about whether guestgulkan feels that the problems he addresses encapsulate the entire site. His response would settle this matter of opinion on what he was implying.

I wasn't disagreeing with him entirely - just stating that we shouldn't assume that a majority of the posts are a problem, nor should we scoff at beginners who desperately need guidance.
~cdogg

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
- A. Einstein

 

[onpnt]

OK then,
lets not get this going the wrong way

trust me I'm fully aware of the forum etiquette. thanks for reminding me though.

without assumption we have no basis to start anything on.

A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

admin@onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[guestgulkan]

All,

I was in no way implying that the 'majority' of postees of this site. That would be too sweeping a statement.
[This is a big site, lots of forums, over 300 thousand members, etc..].

My arguement is NOT about what constitutes 'a lot', a 'few' a 'small minority' or anything like that.

Maybe I should have said something like:
" More questions than I feel comfortable with..."

My particular beef was about the postees asking
the particular type of questions as per my original post,
and whether simply giving the answer was actually helping them??

I belong to the 'teach a man to fish' school.

 

[edfair]

A new user registering can choose the area of expertise he/she feels comfortable with. And since there is no test for admission, that is where they stay. Those who aren't professional programmers will show their ineptitude.
I try to keep my responses professional but in those cases where I strongly suspect a student I have no qualms about using the red flag. And lots of times in the forums I circulate in I ask questions in such a way the original postee has to think of the answer themself rather than getting the answer from me.

I wouldn't go on a medical tek-tips and claim to be a brain surgeon, it would be obvious that I wasn't. But there are people that would. Ed Fair
unixstuff@juno.com
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[cdogg]

edfair's approach is exactly what I'm talking about. Those who answer a given post when it's obviously a student or beginner seeking an easy answer, need to continue to challenge them in the answer you give. Sometimes, they just need a little perspective on how to find the answer, not necessarily what it is. What's wrong with that?

It is important to realize that these kinds of posts are few enough in number. It's nothing to get keyed up about or agitated with. Simply use the 'red flag' option if one bothers you...
~cdogg

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
- A. Einstein

 

[Zarcom]

My beef was merely that I noticed in the past few weeks that one user has been asking a lot of questions. After a while one starts to think that people need to use the intelligence given them to solve a problem rather than to try and get someone else to.
You are right cdogg it is important to realize these are few in number.
I didn't mean to start an argument over small issues sorry.

I do agree with the red flag option. In order to keep people like that from our site we need to use the red flags as well as simply not answering posts.

lol your welcome for the reminder of forum etiquette. I was talking to David(site admin) the other day and he suggested something like it, so newbies can grasp the concepts of the site. That'l do donkey, that'l do
Mark
If you are unsure of forum etiquette check here faq796-2540

 

[cdogg]

No prob, Zarcom...no offense taken! I was just trying to clarify a couple points that weren't clear in the beginning.


~cdogg

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
- A. Einstein

 

[edfair]

But if you see multiple posts obviously from someone abusing the forums in this way, RF it. And make note of the fact so management can look at all of their posts.
If there is a pattern there they will be history.
Generally , an abuser in one forum will be doing the same thing in others that you might not see. Ed Fair
unixstuff@juno.com
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[SF0751]

Can you stand one more opinion? Although I'm not a programmer (DOS batch files are about as complex as I'm willing to handle), I do participate in other forums.

Zarcom stated that "At that point I think that people need to utilize other resources such as researching a problem before asking. If you have truly tried to find a solution and came up blank, then this is an excellent place for info. However, I don't think it should be considered a first reference. Why? because the other members, the ones answering questions aren't being paid to do so. And often they may go do the research for you to find an answer to your question."

I do consider Tek-Tips one of my first reference sites (the other being my product manuals and online Help). Most of the time, however, I find my answer in Tek-Tips by reading posts made by other individuals. Sometimes, I come across information or an idea that is unrelated to the subject of my initial search, but that helps me out in other ways. And, if I've researched the answer to someone else's question, I still benefit by gaining knowledge and information that I did not have before.


Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer. - Mark Twain

 

[Zarcom]

That is a very valid point Mr/Miss name of numbers.

I should have been a little more specific I guess. There is nothing wrong with using the site as a first reference as such. So long as it the questioners first action isn't to post. There is a reason all previous posts are saved. It's so that the knowledge and tips previously asked can be used by others. Theoretically, as time passes fewer and fewer questions should be asked as it becomes more likely the question has already been asked and answered correctly. My major beef is when a question is asked and the same question has been answered and is on the same page as the new one.

Ahh but that is the way of life. If I got myself all worked up about small things all the time I would have an ulcer before I was 25. That'l do donkey, that'l do
Mark
If you are unsure of forum etiquette check here faq796-2540

 

[edfair]

In Mark's rant he left out the FAQs.
Sometimes it seems that FAQs are written just to take up room on the hard drive. (This isn't a slam on the writers, it is a slam on the potential or non-existent readers)

Mark,
You'll only get the ulcers if you have the bacteria. High blood pressure I'll believe. Ed Fair
unixstuff@juno.com
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[Zarcom]

ahh good to Know
High blood pressure it is. That'l do donkey, that'l do
Mark
If you are unsure of forum etiquette check here faq796-2540