Ebonics anybody? 3

[ToniL]

As I read the "Hinglish" thread, I was compelled to start a thread to recognize another "language", or misuse of language; Ebonics. I hear that there are high schools and colleges actually teaching this stuff to our kids, who will eventually wind up running our nation and its businesses. Now, let's take a good look at the word: Ebony=Black and Phonics=speech or words. Meaning that this whole thing is about teaching people to "talk Black", or for lack of a more appropriate phrase, ghetto slang. This puts the nation's Black youth at an even further disadvantage than they are already at by not teaching them proper English and its uses. This is not the language that anyone will hear in a boardroom, or on Capitol Hill, so why "teach" it?

Do I speak Ebonics? Yes, I do... As a Black woman, I need to be able to be an articulate speaker and prove my intelligence at work, but also to "kick it at home" with the brothas and sistas where I'm from. It's important for me to do and be both. I do this so as not alienate anyone whom I work with or chill with. There is a time and place for everything, and Ebonics should not be allowed in the workplace; unless you're a rapper, then it's O.K.

That said, I don't think there is a proper way to speak badly, and to teach that garbage in school is to further widen the gap that society made.

Just my humble opinion,
Peace...

Toni L.

 

[ZoomerZ]

Well, you mean this word is unnapropriate period, even when both girls are black?
But I hear kids do call each other this not during fight but fun...I am so clueless.

 

[ToniL]

Zoomer,

It is inappropriate even if both girls are Black, but there are some things that Black people get away with saying to other Black people that White folks would get beat up for saying to someone Black. I know why that is, but it would take far too long for me to explain it... Just know that the coach acted inappropriately and the child should be told as much.

Dimandja,

I think that the Hollywood people do consult with people in the urban areas for their scripts; to give their "street" movies credibility, but it's up to the actors to make it look and sound believeable; what looks good on paper, does not always sound good rolling off someone's tongue.

Peace,
Toni L.

 

[ZoomerZ]

Ah, I see then. Thanks

 

[SQLSister]

Calling people names is never acceptable even in fun. Children need to be carefully taught that. When they are not then they often become bullies or at the very least unpleasant people to be around as adults. The fact that someone else does it and gets away with it is never an acceptable excuse. Explain to your daughter that some people have different values, but in your family, calling people names, any kind of names, is never acceptable. I too would talk tot he coach.She is supposed t oset an example and it is even more imprtant that she not use that kind of language in front of the black kids. Doing so, is harming there future employment by making them think that language is acceptable to adults and should not be an acceptable practice for a teacher or coach or religious leader.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[Mr3Putt]

The very funny, and unfortunately erstwhile Dunagin's People daily panel-cartoon once showed a fellow at a payphone, finger poised:
[ul]
For English, press one.
For Ebonics, be pressin' two.
[/ul]
Still makes me chuckle, partly because Ralph Dunagin wasn't making a statement about a "language" or "pseudo-language" or anything like that... he merely pointed out some unavoidable and unnecessary confusion.

Now, I don't know how many Ebonic Speakers there are. Nor do I know what percentage of those speakers speak Ebonics as their first language, making a simple question like: "Shall we walk to dinner together this evening?" a head-ache inducing muddle, but... there may be such.

Dialects are important, but only to those who speak them. I guess that makes them ultimately unimportant as the majority will decide what's best for each of us.

Teach it in school? I dunno. I haven't seen a lot of Louisiana cajun-speak courses available... but I may not have looked in the right places.

Plenty of dialects are taught in our schools and universities... when does Ebonics make the move from disregarded thug-speak to dialect? Who decides?

[red]Note:[/red] [gray]The above comments are the opinionated ravings of Mr3Putt. As such, Mr3Putt accepts no responsibility for damages, real or contrived, resulting from acceptance of his opinions as fact.[/gray]

 

[ZoomerZ]

SQLSister...I would assume you don't have children:-D

 

[aardvark92]

I'm just curious: What percentage of schools are teaching Ebonics? Are they teaching it as a foreign language, or as a substitute for English classes?

 

[Dimandja]

>I'm just curious: What percentage of schools are teaching Ebonics? Are they teaching it as a foreign language, or as a substitute for English classes?

I don't know, but here is what the Oakland School Board is saying about Ebonics:

"[...] RESOLVED that the Board of Education officially recognizes the existence, and the cultural and historic bases of West and Niger-Congo African Language Systems, and each language as the predominantly primary language of African-American students; and [...]"

 

[Mr3Putt]

An interesting quote, but a bit further on you'll find:

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED [we will] immediately devise and implement [a] program for imparting instruction to African-American students in their primary language for the combined purposes of maintaining the legitimacy and richness of such language [snip] and to facilitate their acquisition and mastery of English language skills;

I edited the text a bit for length.

It seems that they are NOT resolved to teach Ebonics, but to teach using Ebonics.

Maybe it's just me, but I suppose that that is okay. Although it may also lead to even more divisiveness, as there will now be an Algebra and an Ebonics-Algebra class, etc etc etc.

Also, I'm not sure where the additional teachers and classrooms will be coming from. Are teachers required to state their points in multiple languages? I am unclear how this works presently in our increasingly multi-lingual society.

 

[CajunCenturion]

That is an interesting link Dimandja, but I notice that it was from 1997.

Have their been any changes in policy since then?
Has their been any feedback on the success/failure of any programs?

Good Luck
--------------
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[Dimandja]

>That is an interesting link Dimandja, but I notice that it was from 1997.

Sorry, I missed noticing that date -- one of Internet pitfalls: "bones" can lay around undated on Internet.

I don't know what the current policies are in those schools. The poor kids...

 

[ToniL]

Aiight, look here bro, I just come in here today 'cause I need dat clock, B... Shorty at the crib buggin' 'cause my seed ain't got no diapers, and I always be in da streets scratchin' da scrilla, na'mean? Me and my dawgs is staight up on a paper chase, tryna get my hustle on na'mean? Gotta get that cho, ya feel me? So, check dis out, dawg... Why'ont you put a brotha down with a gig so I can knock dis cheese and put myself on the 'jit trip to stay out the papers... Experience? Oh, yeah, I gots dat on locks, playa!!! My homie boughta hooptie last month, dude, dat thang was a bucket, ya feel me? And it was sittin' on crates, dawg... But we put some sammiches on it, put da beat in da back, and that joint was knockin' when we tightened it up, B... Now we rollin'... So I kicked dat up fo' a while, and dat's how I made my endz, na'mean? But now, I need the freddy on dis tip, na' mean? So wazup; you gon' juice me in, or what?

Toni L.


"WELCOME ABOARD!!!" or "WE'LL CALL YOU...

 

[ZoomerZ]

It was "WE'LL CALL YOU..." right?

 

[ToniL]

That was a satirical scene of an Ebonics-speaking man trying to ask for a job... Not real... Would YOU hire this individual?

Toni L.

 

[ZoomerZ]

as a comedian star!

 

[BobRodes]

It seems to me that there is a richness that derives from accepting variations in culture. It also seems to me that there is value in accepting a common set of semantics for communication. My feeling is that teaching Ebonics in school is all very well, however, teaching English is probably more important in practical terms. The purpose of language is communication. Dialectical communication can convey unique nuances of thought, so there is inherent value in the study of dialects. However, common language can convey the broadest range of thought, so I would say that it is unwise to sacrifice proficiency in common language on the strength of a need to legitimze an existing cultural diversity.

I advocate the learning of English; from the standpoint of Ebonics speakers, I would advocate the learning of English as a (sort of) second language.

 

[Dimandja]

>Aiight, look here bro, [...]

If this candidate can reliably write this stuff, he would be a very good writer, indeed. Watch out, Elmore Leonard!

 

[craigsboyd]

To promote and help foster the continuation of Ebonics in school is wrong to me. I can only speak of how I would feel were it taught to my own children (this is my frame of reference).

I will preface what I am about to say by making it very clear to all that read this that I am not in any way shape or form talking about any predisposition of a certain race/culture, to think otherwise would be a shame and miss entirely the point I am trying to make...

I feel that a large portion of Ebonics (certainly not all of it) has it's roots in ignorance (inability to spell and/or enunciate certain English words). Granted, there are certain words that are new (i.e. janky for foolish, pookie for an addict) and other English words have been given broader meanings with Ebonics (i.e. kicks for shoes, mix for one's personal affairs). If these new words and additional meanings are used/adopted widely enough that well established/authoritative dictionaries/lexica picked them up, then I would have no problem with that. But I would no more want my child taught "aight" for "right" or "axe" for "ask", then I would want them taught baby talk in school - "ni ni" for "goodnight" and "ba ba" for "bottle".

For those who might classify Ebonics as just when English words have "-izzle", "=iggity" and such appended to them... I wouldn't want my children taught pig latin as a second language either. Mention it, let them know it exists? Sure. Spend more than 1 hour out of an entire school year on any of it? I don't like it. Spend a significant amount of time teaching it to my children and in anyway try to get them to adopt it or use it as a second language? I'll be phoning members of the school board to vigorously complain.

As a language it appears to me to have an extremely high density of words that are derogatory, racist/bigoted, chauvinistic, negative, drug-related, hate-filled, homophobic, and indicative of lawlessness/general disregard for authority. I abscribe to the ideas that to communicate is to affect another human being's psychological state and that words are expressions of thoughts and ideas. While I can understand the environment in which Ebonics was forged, I cannot agree that the overall skew I find strikes me as something positive or even remotely neutral. I have nothing to say about an adult choosing to learn/communicate in Ebonics as a language, but I'd just as soon it remained unintelligible to my children.

http://www.sweetpotatosoftware.com

 

[ToniL]

OK... This Ebonics thing is more of a sub-culture language; like the "sk8tr boy" sub-culture, "rave" sub-culture, and the like. Craig is right when he says that the "language" was born from ignorance and/or the inability to pronounce words properly... If there is a situation that I'm in when I need to speak that way so as not alienate those around me, I do, but not at work. Never would I speak like the "candidate" from my earlier post when at work or looking for work. As a Black woman, I am not afraid to say that I would not hire that individual to represent me or my company. English, rather I should say, PROPER English is a lot more important to learn in school than Ebonics, and to teach that crap is to say that it's OK to speak that way. How can a person possibly excel if this is the way he/she has been taught to speak? All of us who have kids in schools, public or private, have trusted the faculty to teach our kids properly, and to provide them with the best education possible. Ebonics does NOT fit the bill here. We as parents and them as educators are obligated to provide our kids, our future with the tools they need to succeed. To that end, Ebonics cannot and should not be considered a viable language to be taught to our children, or in a college setting. As I said earlier, I do speak that way when I need to, but I know the difference... Most kids don't... To tell a kid that saying "axe" instead of "ask" or "look-ded" instead of "looked" accomplishes what? To be perfectly honest, I think Ebonics is something that linguists came up with to exploit a culture or sub-culture that has been scrutinized far too much already. I also think that this sort of thing, as I said earlier, further widens the gap that society created by keeping this sub-culture right where it is... In the ghetto. I do, however, think that it is up to "us" who are part of this sub-culture to teach ourselves to speak properly. I did... I was born and raised in Cuba, and came to the U.S. when I was 13; didn't speak any English at all, but I watched 60 minutes and other news shows a lot and mimmicked how they spoke and taught myself the proper way to enunciate English words. I didn't have to be taught Ebonics, because it was all around me.

Now... Some of you who agree with me may not after this: Let's separate the bull from the bull-sh*t and call it what it is... If anyone wants to be successful in this country, that means co-existing with and functioning among the White population... How many White people (who are not rappers) do you know that speak Ebonics, at work or at home? When I was in college, I was told by one of my teachers that "The most dangerous person in America is an educated Black person." I don't know how true that is, but I do know that I would not have attained an eighth of the success I have if I was an Ebonics-speaking Black woman.

I know that my e-mail box is gonna blow up now with posts like, "I knew she was gonna play the race card!!" But this whole Ebonics thing is about precisely that. Before I become an extremist Black Panther to most of you, my White husband (and non-Ebonics speaker) totally agrees with me, and most of his family does, too. I say "most" because the rest of his family stopped speaking to him when he married me, but that's an entirely different thread... This is something I feel strongly about, because again, to teach this stuff is NOT preparing our kids for a future in this country.

Peace, (and patiently waiting for the backlash)
Toni L.

P.S. If any of you need me to translate the "candidate" that I created's vernacular, feel free to ask...

 

[Dimandja]

>Peace, (and patiently waiting for the backlash)

I'm glad you're patient.


> How can a person possibly excel if this is the way he/she has been taught to speak?

Agreed.


>How many White people (who are not rappers) do you know that speak Ebonics, at work or at home?

How could they? None of my suburban neighbors would know Ebonics from Shinola.


>Craig is right when he says that the "language" was born from ignorance and/or the inability to pronounce words properly...

Sorry, not so. The people who speak "black English" like it just fine. These people should not be confused with movie and rap writers, and other wannabe hip black speaking, high-strutting characters.


>To be perfectly honest, I think Ebonics is something that linguists came up with to exploit a culture or sub-culture that has been scrutinized far too much already.

I don't think there was any conspiracy. Mainly because "Ebonics" speakers do enjoy speaking like that. They don't see it as something to be ashamed of.


>I'll be phoning members of the school board to vigorously complain [about teaching Ebonics in school].

Of course, and I don't blame you; there is such a thing as limits and priorities.


>When I was in college, I was told by one of my teachers that "The most dangerous person in America is an educated Black person." I don't know how true that is, but I do know that I would not have attained an eighth of the success I have if I was an Ebonics-speaking Black woman.

True statement in some circles. You are probably feared and despised in some circles, I'm sure.


> Before I become an extremist Black Panther to most of you [...]

How could you become one? I mean, you don't even like their language...


>This is something I feel strongly about, because again, to teach this stuff is NOT preparing our kids for a future in this country.

Agreed.