Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!

Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!

Register Log in
  • Congratulations gkittelson on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Crystal Licensing Issues 14

Status
Not open for further replies.
IdoMillet

IdoMillet

Instructor
Feb 6, 2001
5,290
US
According to the information at: Crystal seems to be taking a strange and ugly direction in licensing terms and treatment of external trainers and developers of instructional materials.

This forum has seen many requests for recommendations about instructional materials and trainers. I hope we recognize the threat these licensing terms pose to the interests of Crystal's user community (and even to the long-term market success of Crystal). I know that at least one Crystal manager monitors this discussion list, so post a reply (even if it's just a [thumbsdown]); track developments on Ken's page; make some noise!

And I thought that Dilbert would run out of ideas...

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
 
Read it once...read it twice...shook my head...

This is stupid on so many levels - not the least of which is that BOBJ doesn't have anything close to the capacity of available trainers (in-house or partners) to meet the demand for "quality" CR and CE training.

The Peck books (and similar resources) are a huge part of CR's success - having a broad base of official and unoffcial resources makes it more viable for small firms to use the CR/CE tool set.

If they keep doing this stuff they're just asking small to mid-size clients to move to MS Reporting Services...and eventually the big clients will follow because it is the path of least resistance.
 
Beyond the obvious stupidity of their approach, I highly question the legality. While use of screenshots may have some protection, the ability to restrict independent trainers of crystal reports is, IMHO, a restraint of trade. This is not legal.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
 
All,

Those were exactly my reactions. I cannot believe that this could be legal, and it can only be bad for BO's business in the long run.

-LB
 
Lbass nailed it. I, like many other people in the IT trade I know, would love to not have to rely as heavily on Microsift as we do. However if BO continues this line of thinking/non-thinking, I am going to be forced to embrace Microsoft's reporting tool.

BO, I hope you are reading this.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
 
Dear All,

I have to say that I heartily agree with the sentiments here.

A large portion of my business is Crystal Reports training, documentation, and support. It is nice to see in writing from Beth Christopher, BO representative, that writing reports for customers, in other words - consulting, is ok. Whew... I was worried about that one.

It seems to me that this has to be the one of the stupidest positions that a business has ever taken. It is in Crystal's best interest to have a well trained user base. Well trained users - use the software and upgrade.

I find it incredible that she states this is to benefit the users.

..In order to ensure that the trainers of Crystal Reports products maintain the high quality that is expected with Business Objects software products. To this end we have approved certain content providers to supply Crystal Reports training material to the Industry. ...
Click to expand...

The course material and paying $4,000 to $20,000 doesn't ensure that the users get qualified training. What it does is ensure a revenue stream for Crystal and their "approved content providers".

I would be amazed if their content providers had a manual that documents using Crystal to report against the application that I specifically train users to report on. I have developed my courseware based upon a minimum of 10 years experience with Crystal and the software application which Crystal is used to report against.

My clients are already peeved that Crystal continuously removes useful features added in one version of the software (obviously to hook you on the feature) off to Crystal Enterprise on the next.

I cannot tell you how many of my clients and other users of the software have asked about SQL Reporting Services. Enough of them so that I have decided to get myself trained on MS's application so that I can reap the potential future business.

I am actually lucky in a sense that I only provide on-site training or public classes under the auspices of the software vendor for MagicTSD. I advised them of the new training requirements and was advised that they have a separate agreement as an OEM partner and it wasn't a concern.

However, this is still a concern for me as I provide my own courseware for on-site classes.

Her letter states:
If you only offer “onsite” training, please refer to Exhibit B for the only courseware
providers available to you.
Click to expand...

I can hear the laughter now if I were to advise potential customers that we cannot use my custom manual .... but rather have to use an approved vendor of course material which is probably written against the "Northwinds" or Extreme.mdb.

The whole point in hiring me to come onsite to do training is that it is specifically customized on training on the use Crystal to report against this specific application.

I also think their requirement is a violation of fair use....

Get a clue Crystal.

regards,

ro

Rosemary Lieberman
rosemary-at-microflo.com, Microflo provides expert consulting on MagicTSD and Crystal Reports.

You will get answers more quickly if you read this before posting: faq149-3762
 
Rosemary's point about developing Crystal classes and course-ware for reporting against specific applications/databases is a prime example of the gap between the "strategists" at BOBJ and the use of their tools in the Real World.

Thousands of small to mid-size application vendors use Crystal as the defacto reporting solution - and need to be able to train clients on how to report against their unique datasets. That was always highlighted in demos during the Crystal days, since the BOBJ merger - the focus appears to be only on large clients.

Crystal's core strength was always the range of users from "Mom and Pop" to Multinationals that could use the SAME tool to develop report content for themselves and their clients. It was the MS-Word of reporting software, with a wide variety of training available from different types of providers depending on your needs.

If BOBJ's current focus on their own revenue-stream continues to supress the "independent" trainer and user group communities it will only erode the base of customer support as the parent company is considered "...more trouble than they are worth."

It's rare that I would ever advise a company to be "more like Microsoft", but in this case that's exactly what BOBJ should do.

Accept the "independent" trainers, consultants, and user groups as an asset to the growth of a dominant product line for BI - and focus your high-end "Partner" training and consulting programs on the large companies that are looking for BOBJ certified solutions.

MS-Reporting services is a'knockin' at the door...
 
Rosemary,

I believe you are correct on the fair use of screen shots. And I have read court rulings to back that up. That is probably why Vision Harvest/Fast Planet and the Ablaze group are simply ignoring the screen shot requirements put out by BO and preparing to defend against any suits brought.

After your customers stop laughing they should contact Business Objects and let me know what they think. They need to hear from a flood of angry users and this is just starting to happen. The sad truth is we can be right but we still lose if they sue us and we have to defend in court.



Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
 
Another alternative is R&R reports. If you can write crystal you can pick up R&R in less than a day, with only a few issues with slightly different syntax and/or function names.

I also strongly agree with Ken, we must let them know how we feel about this issue, and do everything possible to make sure our customers do the same.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
 
I would be pleased to add my protest. I am an everyday user of Crystal, not particularly proficient but the amount of knowledge I have picked up here has been invaluable.

Without the assistance of the professionals on tek-tips I and my colleagues would no doubt have needed to seek an alternative reporting solution.

Should the opportunity to use your talents and experience for training purposes be withdrawn, the Crystal section of tek-tips would surely grind to a halt - we all appreciate that you need to earn a living whilst enhancing this community. I also believe that this would be detrimental to the future prospects of Crystal Reporting.

I would like to thank you on behalf of my colleagues for
your invaluable assistance.

Kind Regards


jp
 
For those of you who want to send feedback to Business Objects (and don't have a sales rep to talk to) I have posted a list of the senior managers, board members and some primary stockholders on:

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
 
Dear All,

I also think that if you have any contacts within any vendors that include Crystal Reports with their software that you should contact them and have them officially make their thoughts known.

Maybe they will be swayed when their "biggest" customers start complaining on behalf of all of their clients.

Interestingly enough, if I hadn't seen this post then I would have never known about the issue. I did a thorough search at BO's site and can find no references whatsoever.

My reading of my license and the statement of internal business purposes would never be a flag to me as I consider offering training to be an integral business purpose and one of the reasons that my company exists.

I have contacted everyone I know to advise them of this issue. What we need is visibility and reaction from BO.


regards,

ro


Rosemary Lieberman
rosemary-at-microflo.com, Microflo provides expert consulting on MagicTSD and Crystal Reports.

You will get answers more quickly if you read this before posting: faq149-3762
 
I have just started using Crystal Reports and found this site while searching the web in hopes of finding answers that the material from an approved training program couldn't answer. I do not understand why any company would be have a problem with out side help of the people who not only use their product but in the grander picture pay their salary. I for one will drop a program if I can't get it to do what I want and no one can give me a solution or work around for the problem. There is need fro input on issues from the people who use it in the real world rather then the vacume some programers work from. The real world is harsher and more demanding and the BRASS doesn't want to hear "I can't make the program do that!!". I know where I work more than one person has been replaced for using that statment. Let us get the help where we can because I for one can't afford most of the pricer training programs.

OldLoady
 
Rosemary,

Your comments on the phrase "Internal Business Purposes" are right on target and I have been trying to get this defined by example. BO has already put in writing that consulting for a 3rd party can be considered IBP. So I asked about using one copy of my sofware to teach a seminar to third party students. They said that this was 'permitted' but wont clarify whether or not this is IBP. They are now refusing to clarify further because they see where the logical conclusion is. Once they say that my teaching others is IBP, then I can use all of my software copies to accomplish my IBP. The $20,000 classroom license becomes irrelevant.

I have added a copy of my Email dialogue with legal on the license issues page, along with info on a court ruling that shows that software screen shots can be used under fair use - even when used for commercial purposes.

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
 
Ken has added two more topics to the information at
* A court ruling that contradicts BO's policy on the use of Screenshots.

* Companies that are ignoring the new programs.

12 days ago, I had emailed two of the managers at BusinessObjects (from Ken's Key Decision Makers list). So far, no answer. Has anyone else got a response?

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
 
Although I am not a consultant or trainer I just can't believe that BO can be this stupid. The folks at Crystal have made some mistakes in the past but this just takes the cake. It seems like they are trying to do everything in their power to throw their market share of the reporting business to Microsoft. Wake up BO.
 
We are an ISV that sells an application to insurance companies and uses Crystal for reporting. I became aware of this issue via Ken H.'s newsletter (Thx Ken!). At first I figured it had no application to my company, since we teach "private" classes to users of our software. These classes address writing reports using Crystal specifically and only in the context of our application. But the more I read in this forum, the less certain I am. I have raised this question with our BO account manager, and am waiting for his response. Assuming I get one, I will post it here. In the meantime, if anyone has an opinion about this particular scenario, I'd appreciate hearing it. Thx!

Gary L. Levine
Dir S/W Development
SunGard
Gary.Levine@sungard.com
 
Several weeks after sending emails to high-level managers at BO I still haven't heard back from them. To me it seems like these folks don't agree with their organizations's policy on the matter, and rather than state this in writing (which could only mean trouble to the manager) they'd rather not engage in dialog at all.

If your account manager responds, please share with us what he/she says. If it's in writing (email), please also forward it to Ken...

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

K
  • Locked
  • Question
We're using command in crystal report
Replies
1
Views
430
hilfy
hilfy
D
  • Locked
  • Question
Crystal Reports for Visual Studio 2022 Download
Replies
2
Views
4K
Joshua44
J
David Richardson
  • Locked
  • Question
Adding BLOB Fields to Reports in Crystal Reports Professional 8.5
Replies
7
Views
608
hilfy
hilfy
SarahSCPDAdmin
  • Locked
  • Question
Crystal Reports - Group question 1
Replies
2
Views
407
SarahSCPDAdmin
SarahSCPDAdmin
CodeWell
  • Locked
  • Question
Crystal Reports RPTR Format Not Available
Replies
2
Views
356
CodeWell
CodeWell

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top