Crystal Licensing Issues 14

[OrionStar]

I am a Technical User and could not have begun to implement Crystal in our company without THIS FORUM and the venue in which discussions take place. I just briefly read through the comment here to get an overall feeling of the discussion.

My first comment has to do with Crystal Reports "Training". I recently attending one of their "intermediate" training classes and was amazed at what was discussed that had NOTHING TO DO with my particular business. We are a bankruptcy law firm here in Dallas. My point is, that here in forums like this AND in specialized training classes that can be targeted at individual users specific problems, THIS is where we get REAL WORLD solutions to REAL WORLD problems. The format for Crystal Training classes is not such that time can be spent discussing each persons reporting issues. Crystal will not be able to do so either.

I can confidentally say this. I came to this company in Aug04 and quickly noticed that their reporting tool of choise is MS SQL Reporting Tool. We have a very large SQL dept. I used Crystal reports back in 2000-2002 and remembered how good it was. So I recommended getting it here. We had version 9 which I have been using, and management has been so impressed with what I can do with CR9, that guess what, I recommended XI to them...and our new programs arrived today.

My point.... we would not have even invested in CR XI unless THIS forum and people/trainers like you where out there. So, thank you for ALL of your support and expertise.

All to the benefit of Business Objects Crystal Reportings.

I think a big THANK YOU should be in order from BO CR to you trainers...., wouldn't you say????

Thanks:
Mike Vega

"What would you attempt to do... if you knew you could NOT fail?

 

[glevine]

Here is an email thread from our BO Acct Mgr, regarding the CLA:

From: Ronald Buckley [mailto:Ronald.Buckley@businessobjects.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:55 AM
To: Levine, Gary
Subject: Opinion on CLA


Hi Gary,


Below is the response I got from my training dept.


To clarify the need for a CLA.


There are many OEM partners and their resellers who are offering a derivative form of Crystal Reports training on their specific application. At this time, we are not requesting a CLA from them until they renew their OEM agreement with us. At that time we will revisit their training licenses.


However, if an OEM or reseller are offering the standard 2 day Crystal Reports RD I or RD 2 course in a public training environment, a CLA is required.


Let me know if you have more questions.


Thanks,


Ron




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary.Levine@sungard.com [mailto:Gary.Levine@sungard.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 2:48 PM
To: Ronald Buckley
Subject: Opinion on CLA


Hello Ron,


Thanks again for your previous help on clarification of the RCAPI license. I have another license question for you. I recently ran across a discussion of your CLA (Classroom License Agreement) for companies that offer classes on Crystal Reports. This appears to be targeted to companies / individuals that offer public classes on Crystal. We offer fee-based private training to our clients on how to use Crystal specifically and only with our application. These classes are held either at our offices, or at the client’s site (their choice). We use our own, internally developed training materials.


We are assuming that the CLA does not apply to us under these circumstances. Can you please confirm? Let me know if you need additional information. Thanks.


Regards,

Gary

 

[MJRBIM]

QUOTE - "There are many OEM partners and their resellers who are offering a derivative form of Crystal Reports training on their specific application. At this time, we are not requesting a CLA from them until they renew their OEM agreement with us. At that time we will revisit their training licenses."

To me this translates as the crack-down on public classes being phase 1, then BOBJ will go after the application-specific Crystal classes next...and if you are an application developer who doesn't have an OEM then you will probably be on the hook for a training license now.

Anyone else interpret that differently...?

 

[IdoMillet]

Hi Gary,

Thanks! It is interesting to note that this statement relaxes things (temporarily at least) but only for "OEM partners and their resellers". It's not clear if the same rule applies to independent trainers who are using their own training materials.

Could you try to get a clarification from the same guy?

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.

http://www.MilletSoftware.com

 

[dgillz]

MJRBIM,

This is EXACTLY how I interpret this. I am not going to stand by and watch my other collegues get screwed now, only to have it happen to me and my Macola-specific crystal training in 18 months.

Besides which, I get a fair amount of crystal revenue now from other packages.

Gary,

Please post whatever response you get and share it with Ken.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.gainfocus.biz

 

[glevine]

Just an FYI .. I had requested further clarification from our BO rep on 8/4. Haven't got a response back. My guess is (as another poster eluded to), that BO doesn't completely understand the licensing themselves. When (if?) I get a response, I will certainly post it here.

Gary

 

[dgillz]

Just to stir up the pot a bit, I emailed every Macola reseller I know on this issue, with link's to Ken's site, this thread, Gary's dialog (monolog?) with BO, etc.

I want this to be a real issue with the software companies that partner with Business Objects as well.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.gainfocus.biz

 

[kenhamady]

I just spoke with a Solomon / Great Plains VAR and was told that Microsoft just discontinued their OEM course material for Crystal Reports. No reason was given. Anyone able to verify this or know if this is related to BO's new position?

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[kenhamady]

One more update. I recently received an official written statement from BO that seems to contradict Dan Klein's letter about using software to teach public classes. They have not responded to my request for clarification of the contradiction. Those of you affected or interested in this might want to ask the same question. See the following link for details:

http://www.kenhamady.com/contradict.html

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[JGALEY]

I know this thread is old and all, but I just discovered the latest outrageous news about Crystal licensing, and I have to say something.

I have been using CR for report writing since 1997 (v5), and CE since v8.5. Ever since they became Crystal Decisions, they have become more and more greedy.

I hoped they would see the light when Business Objects bought the Crystal line, but instead, it gets worse. Why am I still using Crystal?

I have a MS SQL Reporting Svcs class coming up, and if I can see a way to use it for what I need, then it is bye-bye Crystal. I used to recommend Crystal Reports to anyone who would listen, but those days are gone.

Jason

http://www.catotek.com

 

[CRXIuser2005]

Interestingly, we've been exclusively using SQL Server Query Analyzer for the past 8 yrs for all of our Technology Reporting needs. When I came to work here about a year ago...I had about 3 yrs experience with Crystal Reports but was hired in a total accounting position. (I was not even seeking a position related to reporting)

But, I quickly noticed that we had many problems and concerns going on in our reporting department and immediately spoke up regarding Crystal. I told them I had some experience with it and I knew that it could handle the needs of the company.

We bought it and have even now updated to CR XI.

My point in saying all this is that I'm being asked now to create reports where our SQL Analyzer department has basically given up, because Query Analyzer is unable to handle the requests without many man hours of logic writing and higher paying programmers to use it.

Crystal is too powerful of a program to be thinking that getting rid of it will help the concern that is being spoken of on this thread.

Thank you.

MV

"A man is only as happy, as he makes up his mind to be....

 

[IdoMillet]

Jason,

Are you referring to the information above or to something new? Care to elaborate?

By the way, I'm still hopeful that BO would listen. A couple of years ago, Ken Hamady applied similar pressure on the "Broadcast License" and I think this has yielded the easing of that restriction followed by its complete removal in Crystal XI.

In other words, BO's managers are entitled to making mistakes. It's up to us to clarify to them what the user community thinks about those mistakes, and hope they listen... )

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.

http://www.MilletSoftware.com

 

[JGALEY]

Ido and MV, I think both of you make good points. I have used Crystal to "save the day" so many times it is quite remarkable. That is why I have loved it for so long.

But I cannot afford processor licenses, and having to name users in CE takes all my flexibility away. At least with concurrent users I could have up to 5 at a time (like in CE 9 Standard). We are not a large organization, but we are large enough to have 7-10 people wanting reports at once.

When I say "latest," I am not saying there is something new to report - I just learned today about the problem with them wanting extra money from trainers/instructors. So it is the latest in a long line of such moves, beginning with when they wanted over $12,000 for 5 users of CE with Crystal 8.5, and continuing to when they quoted me almost $30,000 for a CE 9 setup, to when I learned that they were switching from concurrent to named users.

After upgrading to 9 a few years ago, I have not upgraded to 10 or 11. I agree they are entitled to mistakes, and if they are changing their minds on things, I would love to hear about it. I have hundreds of reports out there in my organization, and I still love what Crystal does. Maybe if Ken and others are successful, it would restore my faith!

Thanks,

Jason

http://www.catotek.com

 

[CRXIuser2005]

One other thing to consider is what will the "market place" allow? If Crystal IS....THE.... "A" number 1 reporting package, I think we are going to see them raise fees to better match what is dictaded in the market.

I mean if the next competitor is charging $30K for a 5 user setup for their "enterprise" package, why would Crystal think of charging less?

Personally, CR I think has pretty much evolved into such a powerful package that it was inevitable that they cost of the package would increase as well.

Side note, we've paid many thousands of dollars for our current SQL Server 2000 setup....and as I said in my previous posting....may end up shifting our reporting off of SQL Svr and onto a CR XI Enterprise setup>>>???

Question: Are other providers such as SQL Svr, Hiperion, or others...charging the fees that this thread is talking about? Or is it just BO CR that is doing this type of charge?

I appreciate your input.

Thank you.

MV

"A man is only as happy, as he makes up his mind to be....

 

[IdoMillet]

Actually, probably under the competitive pressure generated by Microsoft, the prices for various configurations of Crystal Enterprise or RAS have been going down.

I believe that at $7,500 you can get a reasonable entry-level RAS configuration.

I think this trend would continue since Business Objects and Crystal is popular but not immune from market forces.

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.

http://www.MilletSoftware.com

 

[MJRBIM]

One of my biggest beefs is the "Depending On The Time Of Year" pricing.

I have seen a first-quarter $300,000 Enterprise quote drop to $125,000 when the Business Objects sales people were in the last few weeks of the fourth-quarter....just give me a $150,000 quote in the first-place and we wouldn't have wasted nine months.

 

[IdoMillet]

While aggravating, this haggling mode is not unique to BO. For example, there are no prices shown for Cognos products on their web site. I agree with you that this generates an adversarial and untrusting relationship between the company and its customers.

Just as in handling car dealers, information is ammunition. Insights into end-of-period pricing tactics and unpublished pricing ranges are one of the benefits of going to user group meetings and participating in web forums like this one. Your message is a clear contribution in that respect... )

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.

http://www.MilletSoftware.com