CCM Features vs AVAYA Features 2

[RTMCKEE]

Has any one compiled a Feature gap analysis between the Call manager and Avaya Definity?

I know everyone thinks different features are important, but I was wondering if anyone has found any that are not mandatory, but its very irritating that the CCM does not have.

The ones I've seen are:
Multi appearance (same number)
Busy indicators
Service Observe

 

[BuckWeet]

Add this to your list:

hunt groups (more advanced than the 2 lame ones that cisco has, also be able to apply forwarding to the hunt group, not let the forwarding of the phone in the hunt group take effect)
cover answer groups
coverage paths
time of day coverage
telecommuter
advanced QSIG (3.3 has basic qsig)
announcments (built into the system)
built in paging features
more advanced COR/COS features
vectors

be nice if they made it so that the system is easier to administrate. its really annoying that when i have to update 1 phone, i have to go to tons of webpages to do simple things.


how about those thigns for a few?

BuckWeet

 

[njohn343]

I agree with Buckweet about multiple web pages, updates, resets to do simple things like put a divert on no answer onto a phone. Quite tedious compared to say Ericsson MD110 where it takes just a few keystrokes.

Also, I've never actually managed to get the more advanced group hunt working on our Cisco 3.1 system. Not sure what step I'm missing but after doing pilot number, web attendant with some obscure username / password etc, it still doesn't work.

Another missing feature is being able to assign an unlocking code (authority code) to a phone to enhance the callout capability for just one call.

 

[congogrey]

I know this might seem like I just drank the red kool-aid but, even thought CCM may not come with those features out of box most of them are available to be installed onto CCM. THat may cost more money but, you will have to pay for those features to activate on the AVAYA as well. Plsu the CCM can do multiple line apearences out of the box. It also has busy indicators with the 7914 side car and the new 7970/7975 will have the same lines.

 

[BuckWeet]

you have to jerry rig the CCM to do multiple line appearances with the same DN, plus also those features come with avaya, except for the qsig of course.. and even with those features that you can load onto CCM, it takes other servers sometimes, and also doesn't do a nice clean job, as well as have the flexibility.


BuckWeet

 

[scaine]

Aye, BuckWeet has never made his/her hatred of the CCM system a secret.

We're still trialling the CCM system (just 15 handsets, Unity and PA) and from a non-telephony background perspective, I'm fairly pleased with what the CCM can do.

We're migrating away from two SX-2000 switches within the next 6 months - 600 extensions over 90 trunks.

Yes - you plow through a fair chunk of web pages to get things setup, but they're fairly logically ordered in my opinion, which makes configuring phones, route patterns and translation patterns extremely simple. Although you have to realise that I didn't even recognise half of the features that BuckWeet was crying for in the previous post. I'm a Cisco router/switch and Checkpoint FW-1 man, my background in Telephony makes short reading.

There are some missing features which we use on our Mitel that are not available in CCM and from reading past posts on feature set, I understand that CCM is pretty basic when it comes to feature set - it's a system which concentrates on being an IP system, rather than a pure telephony system. This is defintely to it's detrminent in many cases, but can be a bonus in other ways, for example, in the integration of Call Manager with AD. Anyway, here's my list :

* Global Directory - can't "hide" entries from the Global Directory.
* Multi-line appearance (same number) - this is the worst. You have to frig this with Hunt Groups to achieve a simple multi-line.
* "Call me Back" funtionality is missing.

Pretty small list, but then we have a pretty basic set of requirements from our two SX-2000's. Multi-line is about as tough as it gets.

Not sure why RTMckee was dissing the busy lamp thing - this is a standard feature on a 7960... what phone were you using?

In the CCM's defense feature-wise, I would suggest that the price point may well justify the CCM system over others, particularly if you shop through third party resellers like Global Direct/Misco and also second hand resellers. Having said that, I don't base this on a price comparison with Definity (of which I have no experience) - I simply think that CCM is very cheap to implement compared to our Mitel system. It scales well for example, even with Unity Unified Messaging and Personal Assistant features enabled. Also, Mitel's own IP system was pretty expensive and still used that abysmal Tracker interface, albeit now ported to a web page format! Torture!

We're just about to implement CCM 3.3, Witness ContactstoreIP voice recording, Data Track Eclipse call reporting/billing and AD integration. I'll let you all know how things pan out. Project should be complete within the next 5 weeks...

Wish me luck. BuckWeet would surely add that I'll need it

Neil.

 

[RTMCKEE]

Jury still out on busy indicators (on avaya you can set a button up on your phone that lights when extension XXXX is on the phone) so you dont bother walking to your bosses desk if you know he/she is on the phone. I've heard several posts that say it can, and a few that say the can't. Guess I'll have to figure that out when we implement ours.

One other question I had is stability? One of my co-workers went to CCM 3.3 class. They had to report the CCM server like 3 or 4 times a day. I can see where this will be a HUGH issue if i have to reboot this server even once a week during business hours. Has anyone else run into this issue? does having an a and b side solve this issue?

I see where you would thing the CCM is better than the SX-2000 I'm guessing pretty much any switch is better than that one! JK

RTMCKEE

 

[BuckWeet]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Cisco man by heart, but I just work with both systems. In most cases, we have to jerry rig the hell outta CCM to make it do basic apps that 20yr systems we're replacing it with can do, and do even more than CCM..

BuckWeet

 

[AdmanOK]

Apparently one of the big problems is that Avaya/Lucent holds patents on the 'way' that they do perform many of their functions... this means that other vendors including Cisco cannot use this seemly simple concept but are forced to make stupid work arounds

 

[VoIPMaster]

Guys I am from both worlds Voice and data by far CCM is the most solid at this point. I do have to admit there are a couple of features that need to be looked at. Paging on the phone will be out in 3.4 as will MADN (Multi Appearence Directory Number) for you data only guys

I have read some good things about the Nortel BCM which has a very nice feature set.

If anyone has aquestion about CCM I will be out here everyday. I have been dealing with it for 4 years since the selsius days.

Thx

 

[mtashiro]

My opinion...

If you compare features between the CCM and any PBX CCM will lose. Face it the legacy PBX world has had over 20 years to get all these features. The features will come.

Where the system shines is what the system can do that others can't. Just look at the services that third party vendors have developed for CCM. You don't see other legacy PBX vendors make available a SDK to develop apps for their systems free of charge.

I agree with congogrey, some of the features you are talking about are available with other apps as I said above.

As far as reliability, in my experience it it very stable. I have several installs that have not had the system reset for over two years! If the system is designed and installed properly it should be very stable. Cisco is weeding out the bad vendors by making it more difficult to maintain the cert. For those of you looking at CCM make sure you get a qualified vendor.

I am not saying it is perfect, it's not. But why do you think legacy PBX vendors are scrambling to get their VoIP systems running? I have seen several bad things and reviews (virtually all Tolly Group reports) concerning Cisco's IPT but in my mind it's because the people talking negativly about don't work with it enough. Cisco appears to be leading the way and others are trying to catch up.

 

[BuckWeet]

Another thing they need to do is be able to make changes to the phones without having to reboot/restart them.. They can do that on routers/switches, why not make it so that the phones constantly peg looking for updated, or have the CCM servers send out and update notice when there are changes..

Cisco needs to realize that you can't reboot/restart things in production systems during live hours..

That just needs to be changed.. This is another thing AVAYA has over CCM, make a change, boom, its applied to the phone. IP stations, digital, analog, whatever, Its applied when you change it..

I love how that guy mentioned they'll have multi-dn apperances (without jerry rigging) in 3.4.. I can't wait.


BuckWeet

 

[talbotpat]

One killer feature of the Avaya IP solution is the configuration of phone parameter settings (like voice vlan and such) via an option in DHCP. Cisco does not have a method for setting the voice vlan automagically if you are using a non Cisco switch. So, if you are unlucky enough to have a couple of million dollars worth of non-Cisco switches in your network, you are forced to manually change the operational vlan setting on the phone. Equally uncool if you are looking at a deployment with thousands of phones. This feature alone makes Avaya very attractive for the huge shops (Fortune 100 companies) that don't have Cisco switching throughout their network today. I have talked the Cisco EVVBU about this as it is a dealbreaker in a few situations (albeit very big ones) that I am currently working on. I guess Avaya doesn't think everyone is going to replace all of their switches with Cajun platforms. ;-)

Pat

 

[BuckWeet]

I just put in a Multivantage solution using cajun switches. I wanted to shoot myself. Cisco switches have like 100x more options than the cajuns do. One huge thing, they don't have anything like VTP. So you have to configure each vlan on each switch. Boy did that get annoying.

I just wish Cisco and AVAYA would get together, heh.. Cisco has the data expertise, AVAYA has the voice.

 

[maraxman]

Hello,
we have both IP solutions Avaya and Cisco, and for example this is one command that I really miss on Cisco CM: status station XXXX. I can see almost everything there: on hook, of hook, which codec is used for call, to which IP address is connection made, pakets rejected,jitter etc.
I agree with BuckWeet, but rebooting phones is only a little thing, because it does not drop call. But every little change on H.323 gateway drops all calls on it.
We have 2,500 stations on Avaya PBX and I cannot imagine do it my work on CCM.

Pavel Vokoun

T-Mobile CZ

 

[mtashiro]

If you want to see the status of a phone use Attendant Console. It will show you the status of every user.

 

[BuckWeet]

but the status station xxxx command tells you tons more information than just telling whether its offhook or not. it gives you tons of information that is very needful..


BuckWeet

 

[maraxman]

Thank you BuckWeet, that is the point!
We are big company, so I am not Network administrator to have rights to manage Cisco routers, but only PaBX admin, and it sometimes makes our work very dificult. It is not shame of CCM, but wrong concept. On Definity, one person, from one enviroment can easily do totaly all thing, which are Voice. On Cisco I manage only application, but not gateways, which are more voice than network device. But I admit, that is not CCM problem, it is only an expirience of mine.

Pavel
T-Mobile CZ

 

[packetde]

Cisco has a similar function as the Avaya Status Station. Just click on the URL when you list the phones from CCM. From there it will open up a URL to the phone itself which will give you a wide range of both voice and data related stats on the phone itself.

http://www.packetdefense.com

- Info Security

http://www.voipreviews.com

- Voice over IP

 

[maraxman]

Yes I know this feature, and I am using it, but i does not tell you which endpoints are connected together. (their IP and DN). Status station on Avaya traces voice stream (UDP) and signalisation (TCP) too. Easily from one command.
Other feature that I dislike is: ones Cisco IP phones boots from DHCP and gets its information (TFTP server), you cannot change it remotely. Scenario: I was using as TFTP server w.x.y.z, and this address was set up in DHCP as options. Than I have had changed it on DHCP server to IP z.y.x.w. (I had changed IP address of publisher) But after rebooting all phones were still using old tftp server: w.x.y.z. I had to go to every telephone and manualy erase their configuration. I had tried any possibility before this step. For example erase thier configuration from CCM and then again register telephone as new, with no success.

Pavel Vokoun

T-Mobile CZ

P.S. excuse my English