Catsup and Ketchup 1

[TTF]

How this is happened with these two?
Why 2 words? Is there story behind it?

 

[tsdragon]

A very good question for which I haven't the slightest clue.

Any other pairs of words people can think of like that?


Tracy Dryden

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[Thadeus]

I want to respond, but don't have much time so these aren't the most definitive answers... and it appears from reading them both that the origins of the red sauce's name is still a bit cloudy. Here's the first with some discussion of the origins of the word: Ketchup 1 (skip down a bit past the author's attempt at levity if you're the serious type :|

This link sounds a bit more authoritative but just as vague: Ketchup 2

 

[sleipnir214]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ket2.htm

Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[SteveGlo]

Thanks sleipnir214 thats been bugging me for over 30 years.

I asked an American soldier in West Germany once the same question as I had only seen 'catsup' in American novels, etc.

He said something like "Yeah - I've wondered about that myself and I reckon some stupid manufacturer didn't know how to spell it and it caught on"

 

[Thadeus]

Sleipnir posted the exact same link I did... His looks like a link though. Maybe that is the difference.

No sour grapes, just wonderment

~Thadeus

 

[SteveGlo]

Thadeus

quite right, his did look more like a link to me - I did'nt mean to deny you the credit for educating me in this vital matter!

Now I'll have to find summit else to worry about. I have raised this in another place but they are silly people there so perhaps you know - where does the American forename Tod come from - its not short for Todney is it ?



Steve

 

[Thadeus]

Again, no offense taken, no feelings slighted. I was just amused. I think it comes from posting in a flurry with others sometimes and never seeng any comments on my post... at those times I wonder if people are only reading the most recent, on-topic, post or if I didn't have anything interesting to submit.

On your current question:
Well, I haven't come across a Tod before. But then again I haven't met a Todd either. I would think that these two are only variants of each other.

Todd's background is interesting in that it is not originally a forename, but a surname meaning "fox". This meaning comes from the Middle English word "todde".

 

[TTF]

I forgot I posted it and WOW! Thanks.

I am thinking it was a "catsup" originaly maybe (which sound to me like a cat soup)
Then in America someone thought of "Ketchup" is a Catch Up (misspelled) to a better taste of food.

But catsup still confuses me. Anyway:-D

 

[Stella740pl]

I've always thought it to be a different spelling/pronunciation of a foreign word, since borrowing foreign words is not a precise science.

I found a proof of it, even though not definitive. A quote wouldn't look good here because of all the symbols, so look up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup

Scroll down to "The China connection" paragraph.

 

[TTF]

Stella,
I never dreamed of seing "Ketchup and U.S. politics" in one sentence!!!

The way they explain it in the Chinese article - you can take any word, slice it and dice it and make anything you want out of it. I do it often compairing words in English and Russian and sometimes it seems to me there were no russian words to begin with, only borrowed from other languages which ofcourse is silly or is it? :-D

 

[tsdragon]

That's called "Etymology" - the study of word origins. Most dictionary entries contain a brief etymology of most words, and it's one of my favorite parts. I think you get a much better "feel" for a word when you know where it comes from.


Tracy Dryden

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[Stella740pl]

TTF,

It seems that we speak the same first language.

I do it often compairing words in English and Russian and sometimes it seems to me there were no russian words to begin with, only borrowed from other languages which ofcourse is silly or is it?

Well, it's a bit of a stretch, but really there are loads of borrowed words; and very often if you know (or feel) which language it was borrowed from, you can tell the period when it was borrowed.

I used to be interested in toponymy - etymology of geographic names, and onomastic - etymology of people's names. I had a good old book on the topic (in Russian, of course) - I don't know where it is now. I still find myself sometimes dissecting words, especially names and geographical places.

 

[TTF]

Stella,
once I was thinking of "kover" in Rusian and "cover" in English. I don't know where from floor/wall rugs first came to Russia, but England would be my last guess.
Why "kover" then? :-D Should I be looking to where "cover" came to English from? What source would I use for that?

 

[Stella740pl]

Don't think Russian "kover" came from English, though some similarities do exist. Wouldn't swear on it, though.

Don't have time look for the answers right now, so what I could offer you now is several links from my bookmarks. I keep them under Reference topic.

Here:

Online Etymology Dictionary

http://www.etymonline.com/

http://dictionary.reference.com/

http://www.yourdictionary.com/

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.yourdictionary.com/

http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm

 

[tsdragon]

Stella: Thanks for the links!


Tracy Dryden

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[Stella740pl]

Oh, I noticed that I messed up the Wikipedia link.

Here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

 

[Thadeus]

TTF,
I found this quick little discussion, but it is not definitive:

Chuvash words. Very interesting is, for example, Slovak, Cz. koberec, Pol. kobierzec "carpet". This word reminds the Rus. kover “carpet”, but it is quite visible that the West Slavic words are not borrowed from Russian. Vasmer believes, that the source of the loan word in Russian can be the Old. Chuv. *kavêr - *kabir (Vasmer M., 1964). It would be conceivable for the Slovak and Czech words to be borrowed even earlier from the Bulgarian, but it would be impossible to confidently state this about the Polish word. There is also another explanation. The Old Chuvashian form restored by Vasmer very closely matches the Eng. cover. Hence, the Slovak word can also be from the Old English (i.e. Germanic, which in turn comes from the Türkic) substratum.

~Thadeus

 

[Stella740pl]

Well, Turkish roots seem more likely to me. In case of Russian, I think it could come directly from one of the Turkic languages group, not through German, English, Polish, etc. Turkic languages are spoken for centuries on a vast part of Russian territory, and also in many parts of the former Soviet Union, so Tatar, Bashkir, Tuvin, Yakut, Chuvash or many other possible sources seem so more likely.
At the end, rugs themselves seem to come not from Germany. ;-)

TTF,
See here. Many familiar language names, don't you think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

 

[Stella740pl]

Also, even though both ESquared and CajunCenturion haven't said anything yet, this topic seems to fit more properly into CajunCenturion's "Making an Impression" forum - forum1256.