Barriers to Women ITers 1

[Onyxpurr]

In a thread recently, we got on the subject of barriers women have faced in the workplace. Someone had mentioned a seperate forum, however I also agree with some that this would be creating a barrier. So rather than seperating ourselves further, why don't we discuss it in this thread?

Some questions to pose...
1) As a woman, what barriers have you encountered or seen in the workplace?
2) How did you overcome them or have seen others overcome them successfully?
3) If not shown in #2, how can we shorten the gap between the sexes?

 

[Gmama]

1) As an Asian woman in our IT department there's alot of pros and cons.

Pros: Staffs find me more approachable than our IT guys

Cons: Staffs think that my work isn't as good as our IT guy (s) even tho I have more experince than the 35 year old gentleman they seem to think highly of. In addition, I am more EFFICIENT!

2) At the end of the day, knowing that I fix that machine and gave the customer more than what was requested gave me a smile on my face while driving home.

Thank you for this topic.

 

[Dollie]

I was posting in the other thread, and saw this thread afterward. Below is a copy of my post in reference to this:

Just for the record.... I totally agree with the fact that women in IT don't often have any peers to talk to, no one around them that understands how difficult it can be sometimes. I also agree that men should be able to read the discussions and get involved in the issues.

I'm not a separatist except when it comes to past marriages

Right now, there is a cost associated with creating a forum, and it's something I just can't add to my expenses. I wanted to post about it so if someone else would like to continue the idea, they are welcome to. However, I think we're in as good a place as any because we've already discovered right here that we're in good company.

 

[dyarwood]

A thought but this is an ethical topic in IT also. I know that cross forum threads are not the done thing but perhaps a link to this thread in that forum would reach more people as the more people open their eyes to the modern day and not some antiquainted idea of collegues abilities (hopefully) the more the situation will improve.

 

[lespaul]

I have to say that I've been really lucky in my situations. I've only been in IT since 2000, and I think that the "first generation" of women in IT have had more problems than the "second generation" (although I'm old enough to be in the first group, in "IT years" I'm in the second!).

I have been very lucky to work with people who are all very respectful and appreciate my skills. I am the SQL expert here (and thanks to things I have learned here, getting even better at creating those monsterous SQL statements to extract info from a non-normalized database!). My boss is very hands off. "Here's this project, they want it to do this, take care of it." Then he may ask every other month "how's it going?"

The users within the court are much more comfortable talking to me about issues than with most of the men in our department. But almost 90% of our employees are in clerical positions and are women and the men intimidate them.

I enjoy my job and the people I work with and really enjoy my "cyber co-workers" that I can exchange information with and get non-involved people to give a new perspective to my issues.

Leslie

 

[Onyxpurr]

I can't remember any direct sexist remarks, or any done with any disrespect.

However, I have found out certain things at places that I work like less benefits or pay than my male counterparts. If I had not known this, I would have been oblivious to the problem.

I discussed with a fairly aggressive female friend of mine who gets paid quite well at her workplace. The difference? She ensures that she asks for what she deserves.

I read in an article that women are typically not aggressive about negotiating for pay, and in the long run, it hurts us. My friend consistently has no qualms in walking into her bosses office and saying she believes she's worth more.

 

[DoubleD]

Onyxpurr,
The salary thing is an excellent point, but it doesn't just apply to women. Many companies will pay personnel the least they think they can get away with, it's only those people who stay aware of what they are worth, and are willing to go after it, that will maintain the pay they deserve.

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD

 

[hilfy]

Like I said in the other thread, things are really great where I'm at now. However, when I got my first programming job 12 years ago, it was a little different story. I was working for a small company as the only female programmer. The company owner was Sikh Hindu and most of the other guys on the prgramming staff were from the Middle East, so I realize it may have just been a cultural thing, too.

My boss (from Jordan) and most of the staff were great to work with but there was one guy who quit when I got a promotion because it meant that I would be working with him (and, it turned out, fixing lots of code that he had screwed up...)

It was also interesting that I was the only female programmer hired in the 2 1/2 years I was there who stayed in the programming staff, the two others ended up being moved to tech support and training.

-Dell

 

[rosieb]

Barriers to women in IT...

1. Agencies! I've been refused consideration for posts for which I was well qualified, because I am an "old woman", I'm not sure which was the issue.

2. Suppliers/customers/vendors expecting a male. It's a pain, but I've never found it a real problem. (I used to refer them to my boss, who'd explain he had no technical knowledge, then refer them back to me. That was quite fun.)

3. Colleagues. I can honestly say I've never had a problem with male colleagues at a technical level. But it does take a time (often a very long time) to be really accepted as part of a primarily male team, if you're going to be accepted as you are (not as a faux male).

4. Ourselves. We allow ourselves to be put down, we admit when we aren't sure (that's so often seen as a sign of lack of competence).

I find one of the biggest problems is getting moral support, finding someone to talk to about problems, the guys either don't do it or do it amongst themselves. When I've got a crisis, I need to talk my solution through.

All this said, I've recently employed a woman, Libyan by birth, and her problems make any of mine pale into insignificance.

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[Tarwn]

I'd like to say it surprises me that women run into so many troubles in the IT world, but it doesn't. I guess that speaks of my general feelings concerning the human race...
I mean, if you think about it, IT work is almost completely a totally mental field (except maybe when your moving equipment, pulling cable, etc). Even the ignorant excuses of physical differences can't be used (well, not accurately in any case). Personally I could care less about the gender of my coworkers, provided they can do the job, etc. I don't see where plumbing comes into the process when your wiring a machine or pushing pixels or coding a procedure.

Had a couple comments run through my head when I saw Rosie's post:
1) Agencies: I've actually had the same issue with them despite being male. Had an agency completely ignore my emails/calls for an ASP position...(for those that don't know, been at top of ASP list for a while now)...my guess is that with the recent job famine they have their hands full trying to keep previous customers in jobs, so tey would rather jam a square peg in a round hole then find someone tat fits the requirements. My outlook is that if they want to ignore good people (based on skill areas, gender, etc) then they will have to live with the results of their own business plan.
2) Customers, etc: Funny thing is, I generally have a better time working with women customers, etc. While it may be a little sexist to say so, I actually get less trouble from women then I do from men. I'm tired of having my capabilities challenged simply so someone can point out to their company how muchbetter off they are having him around. I have never had this problem with a woman IT person (could be luck) and it isn't all guy IT'ers that give me this problem, but it is extremely tiresome to have to try to sidestep some guy who feels challenged by the outsider when his company is paying me to do the work in question.

As far as admitting when you aren't sure, I feel your pain. Personally I see it as a positive skill, to be able to admit when you don't know something or aren't sure of something is going to work as expected. It means you actually spent some time thinking bout whether it would work, reasons it might not work, etc. And the best working relationship I have ever had was with a guy who would bounce ideas off me when he was unsure while also being available to have ideas bounced off him when I felt the need to talk a problem through. In fact, just received a job with his new company and looking forward to working with him again, instead of working with a group of people that see it as a lack of skill to try to talk through a problem or to feel less then confidant about a piece of software or instalation...


Sorry, didn't mean to intrude or to ramble so long, and while I haven't seen enough to know if I am seeing my own problems disproportionately from yours, I did want to share my thoughts on the matter.

-T

 

[rosieb]

Tarwn
Good point, the barriers I mentioned don't just apply to women, but overall I think we probably do experience them more often than men.

I think that problems arise, not from working with a particular gender, but from working with the mediocre (of either sex), but mediocre men probably find competent women even more threatening than competent men.

(Of course, there was the boss who really though he had the right to sleep with any female staff....)

Hope the new job works out well.



Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[Onyxpurr]

Certainly (unfortunately) there are barriers to everyone, regardless of sex, race or religion.

What blows my mind is that I had a woman friend once, that had been a PM and wanted to develop a career path back into that area again. She set up a meeting with HR, and the HR director (a female) told her it was never going to happen because she was a woman!!!

 

[jrbarnett]

As a male ITer having worked for both male and female bosses in my career, I have found that the female bosses generally seem to explain things through more in terms of the requirements, whereas the male bosses say "do this, get on with it." You then need to go and ask questions of them to get the information to complete the job.

Rosieb: Age discrimination is illegal in the UK, I suggest taking your date of birth or age off your CV the next time you apply for something.

John

 

[rosieb]

John
Actually, age discrimination isn't illegal in UK until 2006.

Taking your DoB off a cv doesn't really help, it's not too difficult for a recruiter to guess that if you took your degree before they were born, you're not likely to be under 30.

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[shortone]

Thankfully, I haven't run into too many barriers, just VERY surprised faces when people I've talked to over the phone or via email finally meet me in person. Not that they don't know I'm a female, but I think the fact that my ethnic background throws them (I'm quite the mixture - the Census Bureau just LOVES our family!).

I've had (and do have) many male supervisors and directors in the past and I am their "go to" person for everything IT in this office (in fact, it seems as though everyone in the office has this attitude, judging from the phone calls I get sometimes). I work for State government, which is helpful, because for now I am part of a Union, but in general, Civil Service is slower when it comes to promotions, than private industry. I've had YEARS of experience working with Access and IT in general, developing databases for different departments, setting up systems, etc., but it was just last year that I finally received a TECHNICAL title (from the time I started with the State in 1999, I was in a CLERICAL title, doing what I do now - developing databases). It's a very strange system, but I had a wonderful supervisor who valued my experience and skills and fought for me. Now, my office is sending me to class to become a certified Oracle DBA to support a $4 million project to be rolled out in March 2005! Working here is just a waiting game, for the most part, and I really can't say it's because of my gender.

My main "barrier", or actually, point of resistance, are the clerical staff I work with (most of them). They view me as some sort of enigma and a threat for whatever reason. It both amuses and saddens me, because they constantly complain that I'm getting a promotion and going to meetings, training, etc., but it's part of my job (I hate going to meetings!). We're just not in the same boat, in that respect...

I just keep doing what I am supposed to do here, trying to produce, to the best of my ability, the very best end product I can to make everyone's job around here easier to do.


JayeD
"I'm sure of two things: there IS a God, and I'm NOT Him!" - R. Williams

 

[jaymaechtlen]

Yes, it isn't you gals who have trouble asking for more money, etc. My career progress was slow for a log time, only forwarded by my willingess to tackle anything!

At my current position we have quite a number of females in various positions. From what I've seen, they are a sharp bunch!

My resume (CV) doesn't have dates on diplomas, and listed experience only goes back 10-15 years.
If they really need those additional details, they can ask!

regards
Jay

 

[SQLSister]

JayeD I think you have run into more barriers than you realize. I have never met any man who did technical work for years on a clerical salary. Nor ever seen an organization that would expect him to do so. But these types of things happen to women all the time. (and to be fair to the organizations involved, we often allow them to do this to us.) Your personal earnings will always be much lower than men with the same experience because you spent those years earning a clerical salary.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[Onyxpurr]

Also, most women don't realize that there is this big discrepancy. You may feel you're being paid fairly well or willing to earn a certain amount because the economy isn't doing well, without realizing that the men in your department with less experience and years at the company are getting paid 30% more than you.

It's not like we go around taking a survey from everyone when we get a raise to compare.

 

[shortone]

So true - never really thought of it in that way. That's one of the reasons why Civil Service isn't all it's cracked up to be. Titles really don't mean much around here, not as much as they do in the outside world (meaning that they don't describe so much WHAT you do, but rather, how LONG you've been here!). Granted, another strike against me is the fact that I haven't finished my formal education (I have 109 credits toward my Bachelor's, though it would be in Foreign Languages, and NOT computer science) - the Oracle OCP course I'm taking should count toward college credit, too, and there is a college here near my job that will transfer work experience to college credit also (but one step at a time!). It seems, though, that every department has different policy as to whom they will promote, or deem eligible to take the necessary exam for promotion (most of which are jokes, anyway). The State Department of Personnel found me eligible to take two exams for much higher titles than I'm in now (one was managerial, the other was a Data Processing Programmer) - I passed both of them. In fact, one was just based on Education and Experience - I basically answered a couple of questions ("can you do this?" "Have you done that?") and sent in my resume, and I passed. BUT, the Department for which I work (Education, isn't that ironic?) doesn't recognize those tests as enough proof to give/create either of those positions. But that's okay - I'm just biding my time. I've learned to adopt that attitude, because I've seen others here spinning their wheels and making all sorts of fusses, which just gets them nowhere. I'll keep plugging along and continue gaining my experience (esp. once I'm Oracle certified!).

Thankfully, I'm in a Union, so I get scheduled raises and job security is there, since I'm the only one here that can do (and it's a competence/experience thing) my job, which seems to be the case in many of the Offices in my Department - they all seem to have one specialized IT person, who is the only one that can do what they do (We could probably back each other up, hahahaha!). In situations like these, I trust God, Who has been pretty good in taking care of my daughters and myself over the years (esp. since they're both now in college!).

SQL> INSERT INTO NEW_POSITION (name,title, hiredate, sal)
2 VALUES ('ME', 'Oracle 9i DBA', '01-MAR-2005', 75000);


JayeD
"I'm sure of two things: there IS a God, and I'm NOT Him!" - R. Williams