ASM, ATA-2 over digital T1

[bwtc]

Two months ago, we removed all of our POTS lines in favor of a digital T1 (non-PRI).

We are running a MICS 5.0 at corporate.

Ever since the changeover, we have been receiving complaints from some customers about not being able to fax to us. Likewise, we have some internal complaints that we cannot fax to certain numbers. This problem did not exist prior to switching to the digital T1.

I have had telco test the line for errors, reset the circuit, etc., but the problem persists.

We have one ASM (NTBB51CA-93 rel 03), and 3 ATA-2's. From what I can tell, the problem seems to be more obvious on the ATA-2.

Has anyone else experienced similar problems with fax or data lines going over a digital T1 ?

I got the ok from my boss to order an additional ASM, but before I do so, I was wondering what the general consensus is of the ASM vs ATA-2.

Additionally, will I need a 50-pin amphenol connector for the second ASM, of will it work off of the ampenol from the first ASM, via the fiber cable?

Thanks

 

[acewarlock]

It will need it's own Cable.

I would think an ASM would work better than using a digital port with a ATA, one less pice of equipment in the way.

 

[phoneguy427]

Try turning tones off with flash #808 from each analog port.

 

[bwtc]

Phoneguy,

I'll try the f#808, but how will the "Long Tones" help?

On outbound faxes, the fax machines are dialing correctly, and try to connect.

Thanks

 

[Phonehed]

Long tones only works on a per call basis, there is no turning it off. The long tones feature doesn't apply to inbound calls and probably has nothing to do with outbound fax calls not connecting.

Are you using a routing table or are you just using a line pool code to get out?

An incomplete routing table could cause certain outbound calls to fail, and so could restriction filters.

Incorrect set programming could be sending the inbound calls elsewhere on a busy or denying the call all together.

I assume the problem is intermittent?

Does it only happen when the fax in busy?

I think I'd trade in the 3 atas for another asm. Two asms can be linked together to share the same fiber port and you'd also free up three station ports.

Phonehed in Dallas

 

[bwtc]

Thanks Phonehed,

The fax machines are setup with an external "hotline" of 9, so it does go out over the line pool. And, I do hear the fax machines trying to connect. There are no restriction filters on these devices.

The problem is internittent. Our main fax has a fwd no ans/busy to fax line 2, and fax line 2 has the same for fax line 3. It is seldom when all of our fax lines are in use.

Also, from the console phone, I can see that the fax machines are choosing a line from within pool A (which is associated with destination code 9).

Thanks for the advise on the ASM. Will advise how things worked out.

Thanks again

 

[phoneguy427]

Oops, I believe it was 809, (call progression tones). Only on legacy systems. Check the ATA settings under capabilities, you should be able to specify telephone or modem. That's the choices on my 6.1, not 100% sure on 5.0, if it's there try modem.

 

[Phonehed]

I can see how the hot line feature might be the problem on failed outbound calls if the fax is trying to send digits before it accesses a trunk. See if those calls go through when you insert a 9 instead of using hot line.

Are you hearing the fax machine on the far end trying to connect on outbound calls? They could just be having trouble on the other end if the calls are getting through.

Is your T-1 directly interfaced or converted back to analog?

Are your fax machines using DIDs?

Have you tried stacking 3 inbound calls to see if they roll correctly?



Phonehed in Dallas

 

[bwtc]

Phonehed,
I already tried removing the hotline & dialing 9 with a pause, but I get the same result.

Something that I forgot to mention (but it too makes no difference when removed) is I put in a pre-dial in the route of the "9" destination code of *82. This allows me to "trick" the telco into providing dialtone, since "Second dialtone" isn't available in the 5.0 software...

Yes, I have busied out all of the fax lines, and the rolling does work properly.

We currently have 5 fax lines at corporate -- 3 are on the FNA/FB, and 2 others are stand-alone.

The "main" fax goes into our AS/400. If that is busy or doesn't answer in 2 rings, it goes to line 1 of a a 2-line fax machine. If that is busy or no answer, it goes to line 2 of the 2-line fax.

4 of the 5 fax machines have DID. The second line of the 2-line fax machine is the only one that does not have DID (there is no need for it).

I'm unsure how to answer if the T-1 is directly interfaced or converted to analog -- the T-1 comes in & goes through a Cisco IAD, which plugs into a T1 card (E&M) on the MICS.

Yes, I do hear the fax machines trying to connect. Additionally, I sometimes have problems dialing from one of our fax machines to another (using the DID)... this is the point at which I tried to get Telco involved.


phoneguy,
I don't recall seeing any options to select telephone or modem. I'll double-check that on Monday.


Thanks again for your help

 

[dibthree]

It sounds like a clocking issue to me. Make sure your clocking is set to "primary".

 

[bwtc]

dbullion,

Here is the module configuration for the T1 card:

Discon Timer: 460
Ans Timer: 2
Co fail: TIA-547A
I/F levels: ISDN
Framing: ESF
Internal CSU: Off
DSX1 bld: 000-100
Line coding: B8ZS
ClockSrc: Primary


phoneguy,

The only option that I have for the ATA / ASM devices under "User Preferences" is "Model:Other"

Thanks

 

[dibthree]

Do you have an extrenal CSU? On a Norstar I have always used the internal one so that would be set to "on

 

[bwtc]

dbullion,

I contacted our telco provider tech (who helped us to spec out the T1) to verify the CSU setting, and they are providing CSU.

He went on to say that it is not uncommon for faxes to have problems, because of the compression algorithm that they are using.

Thanks

 

[dibthree]

Is it a box connected between the smartjack and the phone system? If so and if it were me I would try removing that and turning on your internal CSU and plugging the DTI card directly to the smartjack.

If there is not box between DTI and the smartjack then turn on your internal CSU.

 

[bwtc]

The box connected between the smart jack & the phone system is a Cisco IAD, which Telco uses to monitor (and program) the channels. We were told that the T1 would not work without it.

 

[dibthree]

Integrated Access. I see. So I take it that this T1 is providing both voice and data for the customer. I am not sure, but I would guess that the Cisco has a built in CSU. You might turn it on just to see what happens to test it. At least that way you could mark that off the list.

 

[Phonehed]

Sorry bwtc...been out of pocket for a few days.

You've got yourself a real head scratcher there my friend but I think I'd be surprised if it was a Norstar issue.

I'm thinkin' it's either a fax machine or a carrier/Cisco IAD? issue.

If you're having trouble calling from one of your faxes to another of your faxes, try unplugging all of the faxes and then plug single line sets into your fax jacks to make sure they can all call back and forth to each other (both internally and externally).

I think I'd double check all of the set programming again on those dns just to make sure we haven't missed anything anywhere.

While you have those single line sets plugged in, you might as well try calling some of those off premise fax machines that you've been having trouble connecting with, to see if it's just a dialing or dtmf signalling issue.

If you have trouble completing off premise calls at that point, try feature 808 (long tones) after you draw external dial tone to blast those digits out for as long as you hold the key down.

Hope some of that helps to prove that the Norstar is doing what it's supposed to do.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Phonehed in Dallas

 

[bwtc]

Phonehed,

Thanks again for all your help. We ordered a second ASM, which is slated to arrive tomorrow. We are hopeful that this may help alleviate the problem.

My local vendor has verified all programming for the fax machines when we did the cutover to the digital T1, and said that everything is setup fine.

I am fairly confident that the problem is with the carrier. I called our technical support rep (who helped to design the circuit), and he told me that he's not surprised that we are having problems with faxes (that was real encouraging!).

He suggested that we get POTS for the faxes (because there is compression on the lines, and depneding on how many of the channels are in use will affect the data quality)... because of how our cost savings were pitched to management, this is not an option (plus we were initially told that this setup would function properly).

After explaing the fax-to-fax problem, where none of the other channels on the T1 were in use (went to the console phone to verify), he said that he'd look into it... I'm still waiting for the water to boil... :-|

It's funny... at every organization that I have worked for, I have always been in the middle of the finger pointing... "It's the phone company's problem"... "It's your equipment"...

We do not use Verizon (our "big bell") as a carrier, but it seems like every time there is one of their trucks on our street, we develop problems... :-(

Will advise how we make out

 

[dibthree]

We have had some problems with some of the smaller companies when they bring in HDSL circuits and run PRI or Integrated over them instead of running a True T1. You can usually tell in our area by how many pairs the bring the circuit in on. 2 Pairs for a T1 or 1 Pair for HDSL. We have one office using one of those IAD's and i think the carrier was C-Beyond. We finally gave up on them and just orderd pots lines for all of our faxes and modems directly from bell.

 

[bwtc]

dbullion,

This is a digital T1 -- there are 2 wire pair in use.

Our carrier is OneCommunications (formerly CTC)

Thanks