A word which meant something different being used in its.... 5

[Chance1234]

this caught my eye

I was reading an article on ancient plague when the author used the Line "The plague decimated the roman legions."

Im just wondering if there is a word for that kind of word usage. In the sense that decimation to a roman legion would of meant 1 in 10 men being taken out and executed which evolved to the word decimation we use today. I just found it interesting that the author chose to use that word.



Chance,

Filmmaker, gentleman and polla stilo eleous

 

[AnotherHiggins]

Stella,

Welcome back!

A few years ago a friend went to pick up some bagels. There was a sign out front offering a discount on a "Baker's Dozen". She asked for the special and was given 12 bagels.

She pointed out that the special was for a baker's dozen. She was met with blank stares.

Going further, she explained that a baker's dozen means 13. They looked at her like she was complete moron.

Grr.

Santa,

I would say that it is different from decimate

Dang. I must remain vigilant about the forum into which I am posting.

As for decimate vs. moot, i find your points interesting.

First, let me say that I've (obviously) grown up using 'moot' in a way that I'm now learning may be incorrect.

I'm familiar with moot court (I have a few friends who, having checked their souls at the university doors, have become lawyers), but I guess I've always thought of it in the way CC described: Sure, they are arguing, but it isn't 'real'. So the use in "moot court' never struck me as contradicting the "deprived of practical significance" meaning. Hence I've (apparently - as this is new information for me) never actually looked it up and found the 'real' meaning.

But the use of decimate to mean 'practically destroying' something has always annoyed me. I mean, the meaning is right there in the word. decimate. Deci being a prefix meaning 'tenth'. I have always assumed (again, I'm not into etymology so I don't know for a fact) that rampant misuse of the word by the "commoners" led to it's current incarnation appearing in the dictionary.

Still, in your post dated 11 Jun 07 11:09, you quoted the modern definition of "decimate" and concluded "the author was well within her/his literary rights to use the term as s/he did". Yet you deride folks for the (alleged) misuse of "moot".

I don't mean to attack you. I'm exactly the same, but in reverse - I tolerate, and even participate in, the dumbing down of "moot" while objecting to "decimate".

I suppose it comes down to the fact that, as much as certain changes annoy some of us, the English language is a dynamic beast.

That having been said, I still haven't decided whether I'm going to try to be more accepting of the 'modern' definition of decimate or start turning up my nose at the 'modern' definition of moot.

In the mean time, we can both make fun of idiots who say, "mute point".

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[SantaMufasa]

the English language is a dynamic beast.

I totally agree, John. But I prefer that our language's dynamism results from "intelligent" evolution versus the influence of "Parisites" [i.e., Devotees of Paris Hilton, et. al.), who misuse and abuse English by trying to make any word mean whatever they want, thus making the word mean nothing at all.


To be clear, the distinction that I drew between the apparent evolutions in meaning of the words "decimate" and "moot" result from decimate following a reasonable transition from specifically "one-tenth loss" to a more generic "significant loss" versus moot suffering a nearly bi-polar personality change from meaning "arguable" to its near-antithesis, "irrelevant; not worth arguing about".

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[Stella740pl]

anotherhiggins,

Thanks for the welcome.

Just a little note. What is called "a baker's dozen" in English, in Russian is called (roughly translated into English) "a devil's dozen".

 

[MCuthill]

decimate

Main Entry: dec·i·mate
Pronunciation: 'de-s&-"mAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -mat·ed; -mat·ing
Etymology: Latin decimatus, past participle of decimare, from decimus tenth, from decem ten
1 : to select by lot and kill every tenth man of
2 : to exact a tax of 10 percent from <poor as a decimated Cavalier -- John Dryden>
3 a : to reduce drastically especially in number <cholera decimated the population> b : to cause great destruction or harm to <firebombs decimated the city> <an industry decimated by recession>

Could one not say that the plague 'taxed' the Roman Legions by 10%?


Mike
______________________________________________________________
"It Seems All My Problems Exist Between Keyboard and Chair"

 

[snuv]

I might use a sentence like "Dutch elm disease decimated the british elm population" without worrying about whether it was actually 10 %.

If I were going to use the sentence

The plague decimated the roman legions.

I would want to be sure that 1 in 10 soldiers died because of the ambiguity between the two definitions of decimate.


Probably I would avoid it altogether because decimation was a punishment meted out for cowardice by the entire legion and carried out by the legion. Plague might kill one in ten but it wouldnt be decimation.



"If it could have gone wrong earlier and it didn't, it ultimately would have been beneficial for it to have." : Murphy's Ultimate Corollary

 

[Grenage]

Probably I would avoid it altogether because decimation was a punishment meted out for cowardice by the entire legion and carried out by the legion. Plague might kill one in ten but it wouldnt be decimation.

True, but punishment of a legion is merely where the word came from, not than the meaning of the word.

Carlsberg don't run I.T. departments, but if they did they'd probably be more fun.

 

[Lunatic]

You're over-thinking it.

Decimate, as 1 in 10 refers to a 10% tax or a punishment. Unless you are implying that the Romans gave every 10th man the plague as punishment, that definition of decimate does not apply.

The sentance makes absolute sense and decimate is used correctly as it is refering to a drastic reduction in troop strength, not a punishment.

To argue that the 3rd definition should be ignored, you need to first prove that the concept behind the 3rd definition is an English only addition. That it wasn't part of the common usage of the Latin word at the time it was incorporated into the English language.

If decimate was used to refer drastic reduction or harm prior to its inclusion in English then you are arguing that the development of the Latin language was flawed. This would mean the author of the sentance was absolutely correct in using decimate to mean the drastic reduction in troop strength as this is the meaning it has always had, in English.



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[CajunCenturion]

==> To argue that the 3rd definition should be ignored, you need to first prove that the concept behind the 3rd definition is an English only addition. That it wasn't part of the common usage of the Latin word at the time it was incorporated into the English language.
The first evidence -- at least in any of the sources at my disposal -- of decimate being used in the sense of "destroying a large portion of" is in the late 17th century.


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[pinkgecko]

I think you need to give writers some literary license. Often, the prefix or word is used in the absence of a more accurate word. Here are a few others I could think of:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-08-04-nano_x.htm

"Greenpeace has called for a moratorium on the release of nanoparticles in commercial products until studies of potential nano pollution can be completed." What - Greenpeace won't let us release a billionth of a particle any more?

A kilobyte is actually 1000 bites, not 1024? Or will you mind if your carpenter measures two legs of your chair to be 1m and the other two legs to be 1.024m?

A circular reference can only be used when talking about spheres?

When the bible says we should be fruitful and multiply, the writers actually wanted us to do math?

Was the earth already plenished before we needed to replenish it?

Language evolves. I think very few words retain their original meanings; although it is annoying that words with prefixes also have their meanings changed, it is bound to happen as language evolves.


[blue]Never listen to your customers. They were dumb enough to buy your product, so they have no credibility. - Dogbert[/blue]

 

[Lunatic]

CC - Where do you find information like that!?!?! Is it part of those dictionaries that are larger than the tax code?

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[CajunCenturion]

I have access to several etymology dictionaries, and I'm fairly sure there are a couple on-line.

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[SantaMufasa]

Tithing decimates my income.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[kjv1611]

[ROFL2]

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[sarahnade]

To me it seems like "moot" hasn't really changed. wasn't the moot court dealing with hypothetical, unimportant, or (dare I say it?) moot issues?

I really have no idea. I don't know a thing about the moot court.

Sarah
-don't panic, I'm mostly harmless-

 

[2ffat]

I agree with Sarah. I always thought the same thing. No matter what a moot court decides, it doesn't really matter, hence the term, "moot."


James P. Cottingham
-----------------------------------------
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[SantaMufasa]

Sarah...Excellent points, yours! You provided the reconciliation amongst all the usages that makes me comfortable with the apparent misues. Hava

for your contribution. (You could probably become a good lawyer if you ever want to quit your day job and lose all perpective on life and lose all respect from your friends and family. )

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[SantaMufasa]

BTW, Sarah, welcome to our "Impressive" circle of friends here in Making an Impression. You certainly have made a great impression with your first post ever to our forum. (Has anyone ever earned a

on their first post to a forum before?)

Enjoy
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| | | ,-- Hires Root Beer
V V V V [/tt]



Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[sarahnade]

Wow thanks! Glad to be here.

You could probably become a good lawyer if you ever want to quit your day job and lose all perpective on life and lose all respect from your friends and family.

Up until 10th grade that's what I wanted to do. (Had something to do with people telling me I'd argue with a wall.) Luckily, I realized real life is not like Law & Order. That's when I decided to be a programmer. I think I made a wise choice.

Sarah
-don't panic, I'm mostly harmless-

 

[kjv1611]

So now instead of being despised, you're everyone's best friend (when they think they have a computer problem)?

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[bekibutton]

Re: Decimate and its original meaning

Did any UKers see Doctor Who last Saturday - 'Here Come the Drums'?

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I was gonna take over the world but got distracted by something shiny