ZDNet article on VB programmers moving to other systems

[demoman]

I said "..may not.." and that IS what they said. As for the rest of your post..

I am not going to start a Apple/Wintel debate. If you found my post to be such, then I apologize. I thought the thread was about alternative platforms.

I will not retreat from my belief that OSX is miles ahead of Windows. I use both and have no personal reason to care which is better. Sorry, but it is the Mac. And I have insider info at MS, being a former employee (with many friends still there). Longhorn (in its current projected form) is not even as good as Tiger.

 

[chiph]

Longhorn has a pretty close resemblence to BeOS, IMO.

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

 

[strongm]

>I said "..may not.." and that IS what they said

Here's the link to the article (at least, the article I read)

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1820686,00.asp

 

[demoman]

Well, there we go. We are not reading the same article (although I found yours interesting). Below is the 'entry point' article I referred to. This one talks about the issue, but there is another one as well, if you follow the article links around. Sorry, but I do not have time to do it right now. However, this article is just one of many, plus with my personal observations, leads me to believe change is on the air. And that does not neccessarily mean that MS is going to go down the tube. But, I feel that for the first time in a decade (or more), there is going to be other attractive, viable platforms/environments available. MS is going to have to produce a competitive, or better product. Or, they WILL begin to lose market share.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1824810,00.asp

 

[strongm]

No, I still can't find anything in there that says that Longhorn won't support .Net - merely an observation that it probably won't be based on .Net (which is the same thing the article I reference says) which, whilst a probably a disappointment to Windows developers, is hardly the same thing as not supporting .Net

Sure ,you've got an opinion piece from someone with a professed Linux and Open Source bias that says the coming versions of OSX are great. And he's got a valid point.

However. OSX has always been pretty good. NextStep was damn good. At the time of it's launch MacOS was (arguably) better than it's DOS competitors: Gem/Windows. It wins vociferous fans. But still only has less than 2% global market share. Unless Apple does something impossibly dramatic along the lines I've previously described or Microsoft does something really, realy, really stupid (such as actually kill everybody who uses Windows) then I fail to see how the vociferous few who support Apple's operating systems are going to have much if any impact on Microsoft's market share.

It may be sad that something less technically proficient (some would say) should do better, but look at VHS versus Betamax for a previous example of thsi happening, and consider that most sales are to corporations who are intrinsically conservative and have a vested interest in maintaining their investments in software.

 

[demoman]

>"....then I fail to see how the vociferous few who support Apple's operating systems are going to have much if any impact on Microsoft's market share."

It is already happening. I can bear witness. Last year, friends and family members upgraded their systems. Most were fead up with virus threats (and in some cases complete rebuilds). I was also tired of suporting their machines. All but one bought Apple. The other bought a Dell/Linux. He did not like Linux and is now shopping for an iMac G5. In 2003, my company had zero Apple. Today we have 4. But, one of them is a test machine. We run our legacy apps through Citrix and Microsoft OSX. This was a cheaper overall configuration than if we had installed a normal Dell station. It is working VERY well. I am going to set-up 4 more of them in September.

I am not a MS basher. In my opinion, they have done more for computing than anyone. I just want them to clean-up their act and get away from the 'predatory pricing' that has evolved. Remember when MS was trying to establish NT as a viable alternative Server platform to Unix? The overall cost was very enticing, even if the performance lacked. Now that they have the huge market share, their prices are completely out of site. Heck, the landed SW cost of a XP Pro/Office Pro configuration is going to set you back about $600.

Not having competition is usually a bad thing for the consumer. Now days, due diligence in IT purchasing is getting 3-4 quotes on the same MS SW. Your point about the "intrinsically conservative" buying habits are VERY well taken.

I do not know how long you have been in the industry, but their used to be a saying in the early '80s, "No one ever got fired for buying IBM." I remember trying to convince my owner (without success) why it made more sense to buy a computer from this little clone-maker named Compaq. This attitude still exists, and perhaps it always will. But, I remember when the original MacIntosh was introduced. I marveled at the interface. But, it could not make me any money. It did not run the popular business SW of the time. But, I am a firm believer that if Apple had gone to Ashton-Tate, Lotus Development and a few others, and had ported those apps, it would be a different world today.

How much impact Apple can make in the corporate world is anyones guess. I do know that many of the obstacles they once faced have been resolved. You can run your business on a Mac. But, will people want to? That is the question. But, you can get an unlimited liscense for OSX Server for $999. Compare that to Win 2003 Enterprise unlimited! And, there are many OSX installations out there, including several of the world's most powerful systems. The next few years should be interesting!

 

[BobRodes]

I haven't looked at the Mac pretty much since my ComputerLand days back in the 80s. However, it was clear at that time that the Mac was seriously deficient in the areas of DBMS systems and network speed, and that's why they never gained market share. I remember an application that took as much as 15 minutes to post a single record to the server! I suspect many of today's decision makers have perceptions of the Mac world based on the weaknesses of its past.

I don't think Apple will have a chance of gaining market share until it's seen as solid in the LAN and DBMS departments. If you have something to say about Mac's current capabilities in those areas, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Bob

 

[strongm]

>I do not know how long you have been in the industry

I predate the IBM PC ... (and I did manage to convince my boss to purchase Compaq servers and workstations rather than IBM)

>we have 4
Swings and roundabouts, in my experience; my wife works in the (UK) publishing industry, the main corporate bastion of Apple and the Mac. She's apparantly seen a lot more than 4 Macs be replaced with PCs in the last 2 years ...

>there are many OSX installations out there
Depends on your definition of many. It is still a pretty small percentage of the overall market

>you can get an unlimited liscense for OSX Server for $999
Ah yes. But that's because Apple make their money on hardware sales, not on the operating system. Which is why it is unlikey in the near future that we will see Dell and HP platforms with OSX installed on them - Apple can't afford to do that. Or, at least, not at the current OSX price point.

>Not having competition is usually a bad thing for the consumer

Absolutely. But right now I think Microsoft are more scared of the Open movement than they are of Apple. If the Linux people ever get a really decent, consumer-friendly desktop working, for example ...

 

[demoman]

Bob

I can answer some of that. By next fall, I should know the rest first-hand. First let me tell you about my configuration.

I have a home lab. I have 3 Dell WS's (Win 2K Advanced Server, Win 2K Pro and XP Pro), 1 Dell Inspiron, 1 Powermac G5 2x2.0, 1 Powerbook G4 and 1 MacMini. All of them share remote mounted file systems. I see no difference in performance, accessing files between OSX and Windows, as I do native files. But, these are just files. For example, a Word document on a Mac opens on a Dell the same as it does from another Dell.

Soon, I am going to be adding another G5, this one running OSX Server. I have a beta of MySql 5. I am going to convert a fairly complex app from VB to RealBasic and make it an entirely Mac show. Next, I am going to compile the program on one of the Dell's and run it as an all MS deal, with SQL Server 2000. The final piece will be to see if I can make them share a common database.

I know that Mac clients run against enterprise databases all of the time. In fact, this is a very common situation in R&D companies. Immunex use to run Macs behind an Oracle database, although I do not know how it was configured, or what other technologies were involved. I know this for a fact because my friend was head of R&D there.

 

[strongm]

It'll be interesting to hear how your project goes

 

[demoman]

>I predate the IBM PC ... (and I did manage to convince my boss to purchase Compaq servers and workstations rather than IBM)

I wish I would have had you as back-up!

>Ah yes. But that's because Apple make their money on hardware sales, not on the operating system. Which is why it is unlikey in the near future that we will see Dell and HP platforms with OSX installed on them - Apple can't afford to do that. Or, at least, not at the current OSX price point.

>OK - Add a G5 Dual Server, and add an Apple XRaid and the OS and they just made my point even greater! They will beat MS on the SW and Dell/HP/Compaq on the hardware - buy a long shot. Go to their web-site and check it out for yourself. Our company just dropped 600 big upgrading our systems. So, I am pretty up-to-date (6 months) on the costing.

>But right now I think Microsoft are more scared of the Open movement than they are of Apple

Apple is right in the middle of the 'open movement', in fact they are taking a leadership role in parts of it (graphic especially). You might want to check that out too.
Right now, you can go buy (for $999) a Dell, fully loaded with all of the Mac source code available.

 

[BobRodes]

demoman>Apple is right in the middle of the 'open movement'
Huh? When I see an apple compatible computer, I'll agree with you, graphics standards notwithstanding.

strongm>Swings and roundabouts
For our american audience (vidience?), that would be "swings and merry-go-rounds", I do believe, with the meaning of "seesaws and teeter-totters" or "somewhat less than large scale". Strongm may feel free to correct me if he so desires, as he has been kind enough to do in the past when appropriate.

In all seriousness, an interesting discussion. I'm interested in Mac because of my other life as a composer; it seems Mac is the first choice of people that are primarily involved in art and/or music. Thanks for your input.

Bob

 

[strongm]

>with all of the Mac source code available

I hope you are not thinking that Darwin is OS X ...

 

[strongm]

Penguin Dictionary of Cliches

SWINGS AND ROUNDABOUTS: This is a shortened version of the fairground proverb 'What you lose on the swings you win on the roundabouts', current from the beginning of the twentieth century in various forms. It is used to mean that things will balance out in the end.

 

[DrJavaJoe]

What comes around goes around.

Maybe?


Two strings walk into a bar. The first string says to the bartender: 'Bartender, I'll have a beer. u.5n$x5t?*&4ru!2[sACC~ErJ'. The second string says: 'Pardon my friend, he isn't NULL terminated'.

 

[demoman]

>I hope you are not thinking that Darwin is OS X ...

Let's not be nasty. Anyway, I am beginning to feel like an Apple evalaglist. Not my intention. Interesting the way conversations can develop. I ended-up on this thread looking for additional reading on RealBasic. Trying to find some more real-life testimonials (good or bad).

Normally, I would have just ignored the Mac, as I have done for many years. However, my company asked me to learn the ins and outs of video production. They gave me a blank check and I ended up considering Apple as a viable alternative. Not sure why I have prolonged my stay on this thread, however. Perhaps, it is because after many years, and hundreds of thousands of lines of increasingly boring code, I find all this rather refreshing. But, I am out of here. Good luck!

 

[BobRodes]

Ah, thank you strongm, never heard the expression. Might be a more predominantly British one. I hear "what goes around comes around" all the time.

Bob