XP - The death of Microsoft? 8

[Sensibilium]

So, it appears that Microsoft no longer trusts it's customers. How can they believe that Product Activation is a good thing for protecting consumers from the evils of piracy?

Personally, I think this will be make or break for MS, will everyone be shelling out for their software, and then be forced to activate it over the internet? For a start, are all consumers of Windows and Office really connected to the internet? I think not.

What does the future for the company I work for hold?
Well, we will be only going as far as Windows 2000 and Office 2000. If MS don't realise their mistake then we will continue to use this system until something better comes along.

Linux anyone? Ahdkaw
"What would you expect from a bunch of monkeys?"

http://www.sensibilium.com

 

[Voyager1]

OK, ok - you folks aren't going to change my views and I'm not going to change yours. Let's agree to disagree.

BTW - I'm pretty sure I mentioned the differences in the amount of data collected. Perhaps it was a bad example - did you ever send in the warranty card for a toaster oven (or some other appliance)?

Anyway, I've enjoyed this thread. It's nice to go a few rounds with intelligent people for a change...


- Bill

"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar

 

[gunthnp]

now there is something I agree with Voyager1. even if your point of view is differnt it is alway nice to able talk and speak you mind with people who will make you think.

but I would still like to hear what people will do with XP? get it or leave it. So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[MasterRacker]

Hold off for a while.

1. There's nothing wrong with copy protection in and of itself. It's their property. They developed it to sell not to give away. They have a right to be sure they're paid.

2. There's nothing wrong with requiring registration since it's a part of the copy protection. My only problem with MS's method is that too much info is probably going to be required. The only info collected should be the minimum necessary to confirm identity and maybe where you bought it and how much you paid. They have a right to try and gauge the effectiveness of their marketing. They do not however, have the right to gather demographic info on me involuntarily.

3. Requiring re-registration to get a new unlock code when you re-install on a different machine is even okay. If you have 2 or more machines, buy 2 or more copies. (If you have 3 cars, you will have to have 3 engines...)

What's not okay is requiring re-registration to re-install on the same machine. This is intrusive and anti-productive. There are many legitimate reasons for re-installing. Requiring a call to MS every time you might want to do this is unacceptable.

Hold off for a while. If sales are slow or there is enough negative feedback, MS may loosen up a little. Unless there is some overriding new feature you need right away, holding off may prove worth the wait. Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[swertel]

I've been watching this thread for quite some time now and feel that I have enough free time to finally chime in and maybe spark some more issues on the original theme of this thread.

I can recall my college days were every application on my computer was pirated. (Except the OS and that's because I paid for that with the hardware.) Why? Because I needed the apps to do my work and there was no way I could afford the commercial prices of the software. Later in my college career, educational pricing for software suites came into being and I could pick up the $500 set of applications for $50US. So, my computer became less and less of a skull and crossbones machine and instead flew the flag of capitalism. Now that I'm out of school, I no longer need those apps and have uninstalled them. I also destroyed the disc copies because, if for no other reason, the apps are too old to be useful. Those apps have been replaced with, can anyone guess, the applications from my office because we are free to install the software on the computers at work and at home (contigent upon the assumption... blah blah blah). Which brings me to my points:

#1) If we have to activate our software, there will be a lot of students failing their coursework. What will M$ do without all the college programmers who learned how to program by hacking M$ products?

#2) If educational versions sell for 10 times less than commercial version while still being fully functional, why can't M$, in all its omnipotence, develop a pricing/selling plan for home users and commercial users? One simple, although not fool-proof way, would be do drastically overprice server licenses and keep individual licenses inexpensive. Not too many private users will require server licenses. The self-employed person would have only is morals to prevent purchasing the cheaper license.

#3) My office has a site license for M$ products, and only a couple discs. How many employees can take that same disc home and activate it before we can longer use it to repair/update the software at work? Does Microsoft require us to divulge our employer as well as everything else in order to bring the work software home, or are we not legally able to do that anymore? If we divulge our employer, do they count our home use as another site license user and charge the company? If so, couldn't a company just buy 50% of it's licenses and call in the other 50% as home users?

#4) M$ already requires registration of some products, otherwise they expire after a certain number of uses. I'm quite content with submitting my email address to "activate" a program, as long as I'm limitted to the number of activations and no other information is sent. Go ahead and sell my email address. It's no different than getting telemarketing calls at dinner time or junk snail mail, except I can create message filters for email.

#5) High speed internet access isn't everywhere yet. I had it and loved but, but can't get it at home anymore. I never download any updates or service packs because it takes too long on a 56k. If M$ requires an internet activation or other internet depedent service, I'm SOL as are many other potential customers.

To answer your last question, gunthnp, I will be leaving XP. When the time comes I'll move from 98SE to ME or Win2K, depending on my needs. I actually plan on doing the Win2K/Linux dual boot. Corel has been moving their MS Office equivalents to Linux to get the jump on the market. I actually prefer Quattro and WordPerfect over Excel and Word. I hear Corel's VBA equivalent is better and easier than MS VBA, and also happens to be the Linux standard. If M$ did not get market share and become the "industry standard," I would be using Corel products now, but sharing data is more important than application preferences. Bye Bye MS XP, hello Corel Linux.

 

[mrsurrender]

I agree with everything the last two postings say.

I will not turn to XP, if MS wants too much information, I might at work, if my boss tells me to. But I am quiet sure that he doesn't force me to. And then they will buy a package where I don't tell a thing of my private dates.

I hope that Linux will arise even faster. Until then, I think I will run fine with Win98 or Win2k.

Never stop thinking.
Siegfried.

 

[pivan]

Good for you mrsurrender...the first strike against product activation. I am going to send the URL of this thread to Bill Gates.

This is the one of the better approaches.

Because of this, I am actually thinking, as much as I dispise playing around with operating systems, switching from Windows to Linux.

The battle is really in the marketplace nowadays. A Consumer Rev****ion. In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[mcvpjd3]

I have to agree with most people on the activation issues, they are completely wrong. The reason for my posting a message thought is that a few people here have mentioned ". I mean its my CD... I bought it..period.", saying that if they buy the software then it's theirs. To these people I suggest you read your EULA (software license), where upon you will find that you have NOT purchased software, you have purely spent your money buying a right to use this software with a LOT of limitations.

HTH

Patrick

 

[mrsurrender]

@mcvpjd3: First, German laws say that I own the copy of the software regardless what M$ wants to offer me. In Germany it is illegal to say by M$ that I only got the right to use the software. That is different in US laws, I know.

Second, owning or using: The point is: I buy something and want to use it. M$ got a right that I use it only as far as license and federal laws allow me to. But M$ shouldn't be able to know anything more than what I bought.

If I buy a Porsche, no one in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen (yeah, that's where they build that car) or anywhere else should get a report, where I went for vacation with that car or who drove in it...

(To all German readers: In der c't 9/01 steht ein guter Testbericht zu WinXP und ein ausführlicher Artikel zur Bedenklichkeit der Registrierung inkl. Interview mit einem Rechtsexperten.)

Never stop thinking!
Siegfried.

 

[butchrecon]

mcvpjd3 you are oh so correct. Most people do not read their EULA! They ASSUME since they paid for the OS that they own it and have the right to do what they want with it. But as you stated we only pay for a liscence to use it. We really are not allowed to modify or resell the the software. So in essence MS can do what they want. We dont like product activation. SO WHAT! Dont by the software. We have NO Choice. As long as MS is getting away with their strong arm tactics the consumers will always get the short end of the stick. Its not like we can go out and get a different OS. (Dont suggest LINUX). There really is not ANY other OS out there that is as easy to use out of the box as Windows. Sure LINUX is strong and has its points, BUT it is not easy to use or learn for those who dont know a whole lot about computers. James Collins
Computer Hardware Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[mcvpjd3]

Sorry mrsurrender - I think I may have confused you with my message above - I agree, the info gathering by MS is wrong - as is the "activation" system being used. The point I was making is that we don't actually own any of the MS software - we just rent it for a fixed one-off payment (at the moment anyway).

HTH

 

[gunthnp]

to say there is no other software is wrong ther is the MAC os though to be the most user firendly os ever, and now that os X(10) can run most unix porgrams how can you say there is no onther os's not to say anything about sloaris, linux, beos, bsd(all froms), and lot more.they still even make the amiga os to give up and let M$ tell you what to do is self imposed slaver to software how sad. So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[mrsurrender]

@mcvpjd3:
Sorry, no! German laws say that you own the copy. It is definitely different to the US law. And M$ has to accept the federal German law. Point.

Siegfried

 

[butchrecon]

My point was not that there was no other OS. It was there was not an OS out ther (Let me clerify this--FOR THE PC) that is as easy to use and learn as Windows. I know there are others such as Solaris, LINUX, BeOS ect...

My point I am trying yo make is that until there is an OS for the PC market that is AS easy to use or easier than Windows, we are subject to the rule set in the EULA. Saying that M$ telling one what to do is self imposed slavery is being too harsh. Not every one can learn the alternative OSs as easily as they can Windows. Comeon get real. I am not a big fan of M$. I do use the software and need to know it well for my job. I prefer LINUX and like learning it. But I have some back ground in computers. It is easy for us in the industry to forget that we know what we are doing (for the most part). The average consumer still cant program their VCR let alone set up the alternative OS's. James Collins
Computer Hardware Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[pivan]

James is right. There are no viable alternative OS's for the average consumer.

I can just see my grandmother trying to install Linux on her pc. Also..what is a MAC? Amiga....what about Sega and Gameboy.

I can just see the DOJ breaking down someones door to arrest them for running an illegal instance of Windows on their lap top. "Freeze...drop your mouse...now!! Hands off the keyboard."
I am hoping that as a society we have more important things to spend our time on.

Sorry to say. Like it or not..if MS wants to require product activation they are going to get their way. Better learn to get behind it and deal with it in your own existential way.

Fortunatly I have only been victom of product activation once. Thought it was stupid...not going to say how I resolved it.

Cheers,
pivan

In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[iza]

just wondering ... about the product activation, and the info gathering : what prevent us from giving WRONG informations ? that's always what i do when asked to fill such questionnaires : born in 1910, living in any island with a nice name, and growing chickens (or cows ...) ... jsut going throu an anonymizer proxy allows me to hide/show whatever i want ...
am i dreaming or is it possible to activate your xp this way ? (if it is, i really don't care what they do with my pseudo-private infos !)
also i think most of you missed siegfried's post, as i find it raises a very important issue : you american build softwares, write license, and export them thinking that the laws are the american laws all over the world ... naaaaa we have our own laws and they override yours ) so most of your licences are not valid outside the us ) - so we are not real pirats here in europe ;]]

 

[mrsurrender]

Hi iza,

giving wrong information? Okay. You should never register online. As I just read in the above mentioned German pc magazine M$ is able to do a lot in behind. At least they might know a lot about Your hardware.

Still I don't like the thought that we have to swallow everything. Yes, James, Your're right. M$ is the biggest and they are quiet easy to use (but not as easy as it should be - Anyway).

But I think that we can make a little difference, as stated before. If the users just wait some month buying XP, M$ will notice. If they understand that thir selling is going down because of their activation procedures they might change that. Of course, we will live with M$ for the next years, but we can show M$ that we don't agree with their actually common policy. I think a boycot of XP only for 3 months will already have a great impact on the M$ marketing. And until then I will use Win2k/Win98,Office2000. Without any registration, but legally bought.

Never stop thinking.
Siegfried.

 

[iza]

"You should never register online" --> as i said in another post, still using my 14.4 modem (!!) makes me totally unable to go to msdn & other big sites ;-) - i do so from work - and "small" sites only sniff "hideable" infos ...

 

[mrsurrender]

Okay. But registing online is common also by other vendors than MS. Somehow I have to register...
Good to know, that it is possible to register XP by phone.

But this is how it works with XP:
You install XP, type in your CD-key, and after that XP calculates an ID code you transmit to M$. After that you receive a code to use XP. Nobody knows what that huge 128-bit-code you give away includes. But you can be sure that it includes lots of information of your hardware. If you change your hardware (even just a little bit) it will happen some day that you need a new licence code. So you are in that phone line again. And it is proven that this code includes the CD-key you typed in before generating the installation code you have to share with M$. So they know at least a lot of your hardware. And who knows what else they spy out. What about changing hardware and moving that licence to another pc? Or just selling that thing? Or you buy a pc from another and change a little (which you surely will someday). You will have to register again. And does M$ always understand the (legal) deals you did? So you will not receive a code to use XP, but a scary letter...

It is not that I am that afraid telling some details (what everybody would talking to a support hotline), but it was also said in the article I mentioned above that in previous online registrations M$ did this: M$ said that they would not spy out x and y, but afterwards they where shown that they did. So I don't trust M$, even if they say they don't.

Using a 14.4 modem... O no! I use the internet too often. I have to have at least a quick ISDN dial up and high transmitting rate. At home 64kBit/s is already slow, at work I love using 2 MBit/s...

Mr. Surrender Himself

 

[gunthnp]

http://www.licenturion.com/xp/fully-licensed-wpa.txt

So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[gunthnp]

sorry I did not say what the link was for, It is a withe paper on what the xp ID means. So long and thanks for all the fish.