Women in IT 6

[glynis]

It seems that us women are out numbered in the IT Industry.
I also find that the men I work with honestly believe that women couldn't possibly know anything in the IT business and are condescending and chauvanistic.
I believe I can do my job as well as any man.Is this an IT thing or ,just a man thing.
The other point I'd like to make is that womens salaries in the industry are still not on a par with mens--WHY??????

 

[BeckahC]

caveshepherd,

It's great to hear that Men and Women are trreated to equal pay... luckily my Hubby is of the thought that since we both work full time, we should both do some of the cooking and cleaning (of course my share is usually larger and done better, but beggars can't be choosers! ;-) ) Hopefully, over the next years equality in the home will start to follow the equality at work where you are!

MrTechnologist,

It is very good to hear that some places do go by merit, eliminating gender from part of the equation and focusing on the person is what people and companies should be doing, I think. However, there are places that do not believe in equal pay for equal work - they don't outright tell you, but it is generally known that a male tech gets paid more than a female tech in the same, or comparable level of expertise, experience, schooling and overall qualifications. Female programmers get paid less than males and here, for example, the male clerks even get paid more than the females, even where they are less qualified than their female counterparts and newer on the job! I agree this isn't right, but it does happen. BeckahC

 

[miked]

A common point in this thread is the 'unfair' condition where men make more women for the same job. I believe that to be an equally unfair generalization. Each employee (man or woman) should evaluate their own salary requirements according to what they feel they are worth and if their present employer can't/won't meet that requirement, then it is in their interest to find one that will. I work for 3 years, and my minimal yearly increases put my salary at 10% less than the new hire who doesn't have the company-specific experience: regardless of my gender (or theirs) there is an unfair salary difference. It actually pays more to get a 15-20% salaray increase by changing employers than to stick with yearly raises.
One's presentation at an interview is in may ways prone to descrimination. If my hair is too long, or i don't dress appropriately, then "the old boys" in charge won't higher me even if i'm qualified - gender bias may be the least worry. Suppose the IT manager or HR person is herself a woman, but she just doesn't like the way you look. You will have been descriminated against BY a woman, even if you ARE a woman. That's just a fact of human social interaction. If every interview you have ends in your feeling descriminated against, who is at fault?
On another point, most of the IT women I have worked with are better at their jobs than similary educated/experienced male techs/developers. This might be due to the need to prove something, or the natural ability to multitask and organize or perhaps some entirely different reason.
I think my position on this is that each individual is responsible for everything from what salary they can get for themselves to how their coworkers relate. Any finger pointing and comparison to others is maybe a bit less ambitious than simply working to improve the situation. Hopefully that isn't taken as a slight to anyone, but more of a general suggestion...

 

[BeckahC]

MikeD,
I can see what you're saying. Part of me definitly agrees with you, too. But there is another part of me that feels that companies should have to treat men and women the same... comparable salaries for comparable work, family leave, the same amount of time for men and women, etc. Now if someone (like myself, for instance) works at a company that does not, then I feel the company should change.
While that is not likely my company will change anytime soon, I have to say that I did not know what others were making when they hired me, nor did I now the precise salary range for my position as neither were disclosed to me. If it were disclosed, I certainly may have thought twice before taking the job. Yes, it is my decision to stay or go... but why should I be out of work in a volitile job market because of unfair employment practices. I am located in NY, none of the job fairs will let you in right now if you:
1. already have a job
or
2. are not jobless because of the recent tradegedy.

I think these conditions are appropriate for the times right now and have no problems with that. But if my choice is between: continue to work at a company using unfair employment practices, or be out of work, looking for a job for several months, or more.... I believe my decision has been made for me. BeckahC

 

[miked]

Of course the conditions surrounding the decision to leave your current employer include more than your gender and current work environment. Its horrible that "unfair employment practices" happen in ANY way, not only gender or race but any other measurable quality.
I was hired at entry level salary to do basic IT grunt work. After 6 months of exceptional work and a willingness to take on more responsibility, i was given a raise. Each year thereafter the raises get smaller while the responsibility continues to increase. With no real job description, i have no way to claim that everything i've aquired isn't really "my job" I've been averaging a 46 hour week, but am paid for 37.5 - So basically, my hourly wage has gone down because of the unpaid overtime. My boss claims that most/all IT people work overtime as part of their professional salaried position. While that might be true and many IT people are working 50-60 hour weeks, their salary reflects that.
Should i jump to another company? (supposing i could do so in the current job market) I have to weigh the lattitude this company gives me and the range of special projects i get to learn new skills for vs. the potential of making more money at a less forgiving company. (also that i'd have to start over with the relations to colleagues)

This company is noticeably misogynist. I have to ask [you all] what makes women NOT take legal action against the employer? One coworker refuses to even ASK for more money (and is looking for a second job to compensate) because she 'knows the company would never go for it' So the company wins the arguement by default. It sometimes bothers me that the women (or other group) who are being most beat down do the least to improve the situation (for whatever reasons) - yet i really don't have the right to intervene. So is this thread a philosophical discussion or a forum for ideas to correct an obvious problem?

 

[BeckahC]

Another good point MikeD. I, for one, ask for more money... every chance I get... not that each of the little raises has put me to where I need to be - but I am better off than when I began. I also get the "IT people are always on-call - 24/7" speech... I also wish my salary would reflect that... Many a time I have a 6 day work week coming in and leaving before and after others - also IT workers... some stay, some go home at 5 or before - of course, no one knows who logs in from home....

Anyway, I see your point that people in general are taken advantage of by their employers if we give them the chance to do so. There are many options to weigh... If you take a look at my thread on the "Hypothetical question..." ( I think it's in the Professional Development forum under the "Corporate Water Cooler" topic, I posed an interesting problem that friend asked me to consider... BeckahC

 

[mow]

Interesting post. Here goes my little addition...

Notbob (early on in the post) referred to a self-perpetuating cycle whereby a new employee doesn't want to be the "only woman" on the team. Or vice-versa.

Contrary to that, I believe that being a woman in IT gives you a chance to stand out from the crowd - you must of course be as good (or better) than your other colleagues. Personally, I do not subscribe to the arguments that say there's no difference between men and women. There are differences (both subjective and objective). The problem is in the stereotyped attitudes that automatically make assumptions of the limitations of one group of individuals.

Elizabeth proposed her solution - (1) social action and (2) rising above it on a personal level. Obviously, the second is easy to adopt (at least I hope so).

But the first could take a little doing. As a first step, I think every woman in IT should make it her duty to stand out from the crowd. She should evaluate her strengths and weaknesses and determine how best to move forward in her career. Identify what you can bring to your team that your male counterparts lack - do not hesitate to apply your uniquely woman approach in your work. If all women do this (and not just in IT), there'd be more role models for young girls to look up to (and wish to emulate) when they're deciding on a career. Then the men/women population in the workplace balances. Then women can begin to command better salaries. (I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic)

Women, let's not pretend there's no difference between men and women. Let's celebrate the differences instead. I believe in women, I believe women are uniquely positioned to influence the careers (and minds) of future generations (recall Elizabeths comment - Doesn't it just figure that a thread entitled "Women in IT" would digress to "what people should teach their kids?" ), so let's do so. The future can only get better.

 

[BeckahC]

Mow,
I like your views on the differences... When I was speaking of "no difference" between men and women, I think I was speaking more along the lines of women can do just as much, just as well as men can and we should not be judged as being different (in a bad way) from men. Obviously every individual in IT as well as all other professions in the world has their own talents and individuality to offer... I just don't think salary or opportunity should be limited or based upon being a man or woman - which it does seem to be in so many companies (not all!).
BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

Regarding the earlier comment "most of the IT women I have worked with are better at their jobs than similary educated/experienced male techs/developers. This might be due to the need to prove something, or the natural ability to multitask and organize or perhaps some entirely different reason." I suggest the most likely reason is discrimination against women. If you have a group that is discriminated against, it is likely that only the most competent will make it at all. The average ones have been passed by. Of course on top of discriminating against all women, you can also discriminate against a black woman, or an older woman, or a handicapped woman, a lesbian, an ugly woman, a fat woman, a woman who has bad teeth ...

And I'd also like to restate that there is absolutely NO difference "between men and women" except for the physical ones. There are only statistical differences between large groups of men and women. So go ahead and 'celebrate' the 'statistical differences between large groups of men & women' if you like. But I think it makes so much more sense just to try to appreciate diversity in individuals rather than stereotype groups.

Regarding tellling everyone to go out there and fight for equal pay, that's not appreciating diversity. It's assuming that everyone should hold the same value system, prioritizing money highly. I think there are many acceptable reasons to remain at a position without sufficient pay or leave without confrontation, including stress reduction which is killing many type-A confrontational types.

 

[mow]

Good news! This is a Brainbench IT Salary Survey which came into my mailbox this morning:

"Women appear to be closing the wage gap with men, especially in larger companies with sales in excess of $1 billion. The percentage of females earning more than $150,000 outpaced that of males by almost double in companies with sales in excess of $1 billion. Across the board, women appear to be gaining ground in salary parity, especially in the middle management ranks earning between $50,000 and $100,000 per year."

See

http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/landing/reports/itsalary.xml

- you will need to sign on to brainbench to access the report.
I'll leave it to you to decide whether surveys always show the REAL picture.

And Elizabeth, I'd love it when the whole world begins to value diversity in individuals rather than stereotype large groups (of men and women, blacks and whites, thin and fat, old and young etc). And of course, every individual has to decide what's important to him/her. If it bothers an individual to receiving a lower income than other persons on the level (of similar competencies and experience), then that person has a responsible to fight for his/her right. For an individual who's on low income but enjoys the flexibility of his/her job, that's probably an acceptable trade-off the individual would have to make.

But as long as a group is discriminated against, then members of that group IMHO have to work harder, longer, better (whatever) and use those very same differences for which the discrimination exists (if possible) to their advantage. That way (after a lot of effort and frustrations probably), they'd begin to gain recognition and acceptance (as a group) and maybe (just maybe), they'd become more highly sought after (for those very positions they struggled to get into) later. Wishing everyone would just change their views, biases overnight will just not work.

 

[KimberTech]

Elizabeth,

I am a woman in IT as well, and I have to say I have enjoyed reading the entire post..quite a diverse bunch.
It is really great to hear that things are getting better out there..I have been doing this a long time, and after frustrating experience with men in positions around me better paid etc I started my own company.

There are lots of options for ANY person to succeed, if they are willing to work for it.
I made the decision to get OUT of the rat race and become my own entity.
Now I am sought after for my skills...technical skills have become secondary to my clients mind, and people skills..honesty and integrity...have become number one.

I went through a lot of what I have read here, and more.
No PERSON at all should be passed over etc...and each person should be judged by his or her own merit.

Funny as it is, my boss was....a woman!

I pledge to share any information I have and advise to the best of my knowledge based on the information provided. If I have helped, please vote my post helpful.

 

[BeckahC]

KimberTech,
Thank you, for the compliments and for the honesty! I hope to some day be able to work from home and/or start a business with my husband (who is an engineer) and reading that you went through all this and have worked your way up to suceeding at your own business is something that I find inspiring! BeckahC

 

[sleew]

There are 70 posts and i am not really free to read them all but i would like to say that i am very happy when i see women in IT and i will be if i come to job tomorow and see some lady yelling on Cisco router.Just hope it wont be some VMS girl (those are heavy!!!) ) Sleew
Compaq & Microsoft TS
sleew@infosky.net

 

[aexley]

Just passing through and having had time to read them all but this looks like another fascinating thread.

Just to chuck in my tuppence worth.

I started my computing with a BBC 'B' and I am firmly of the belief that the younger the better when it comes to IT skills (handled properly of course. It's no good sticking your kid in front of a Playstation when they're three!) This may have been mentioned before, but in most households I knew of that had any kind of computer/console whatever it was it was and is almost invariably the male children who were encouraged to use it and had the most enthusiasm for it.

If you've got a three or four year advantage on your female sibling even if it's only being able to load up a game you're generally going to be in a better position when you start to use computers for real.

I suppose the point I'm getting to is MORE COMPUTERS IN SCHOOLS! 1 child - 1 computer should be the vision of governments, education and parents alike. I know it's unrealistic but it's definitely something to aim for.

aexley

 

[BeckahC]

aexley,
I agree, computers in schools are the way to the future.. I also think that by the time this happens there will be affordable technology out there to allow for "notebook" computers replacing children's notebooks. They could still practice penmanship and all, but whatever they wrote could appear and/or be printed at the front of the class by the teacher. Computer skills could start being integrated in our children from around K or 1st grade and up as far as this goes - earlier in other aspects. Take educational games - they can help develop skills like hand/eye coordination, ABCs and 123s, colors, shapes, etc. interactively. This should not prevent parents from being involved, human interaction is also essential to a child's development, of course. But if you take our generation, computer comfortble and we birth a generation of computer as a way of life... that could only help prepare them for the future.

Definitely something to aim for. Programs could be traded like recipes! ;-) BeckahC