Women in IT 6

[glynis]

It seems that us women are out numbered in the IT Industry.
I also find that the men I work with honestly believe that women couldn't possibly know anything in the IT business and are condescending and chauvanistic.
I believe I can do my job as well as any man.Is this an IT thing or ,just a man thing.
The other point I'd like to make is that womens salaries in the industry are still not on a par with mens--WHY??????

 

[BeckahC]

Ruairi,
I can kind of see what you're saying. However, from my viewpoint - I am in a position as a programmer that is practically the only one who knows the system that I work on - inside and out - in the future, when I have children I will come to having to make a decision whether or not to come back to work after maternity leave... I would love to come back to work, as I would go insane if I had to sit at home with a baby all day every day for years... (JMHO about me and my life! Please do not take offense at this!) Now I have a friend that is a stay at home mom.. she wasn't really planning to be, but when she looked into childcare options, she saw that she would literally be signing her paycheck over to childcare every week just to come back to work.

Women having lower salaries has a major impact on whether or not we come back to work... I hope to be able to afford coming back to work - especially since my husband and I currently depend on my benefits for health care! (By the way - the friend I spoke of was making a bit more than I am - she was a secretary and I am a programmer - talk about unfair! :-( )

As far as the population of computer classes and departments.... Where I work - my group consists of 6 people - not couting a few that are about to be added on - and of those 6, 1 is a man + our Director is, the rest of us are all women... and half of us still take classes - continuing ed and training classes. Most of the classes seem to be well mixed, too. BeckahC

 

[glynis]

Can I throw another spanner in the works by mentioning that I am a working mother and returned to work 3 months after having my baby.Men (In Britain) also get paternity leave ok not 3 months but they still are not left out in the 'leave' stakes!
I don't think anyone has a right to discriminate because women are the sex that bear children.I am quite often made to feel quilty because I have a child and am always up against the "You get to leave on time because of your child " and "You get to take Xmas off because you've got a child" This sort of behaviour makes me mad because I did 18 years working full time,long hours and working Xmas because I had several colleagues who had children.I thought that was fair.I believe that I've done my bit and so it should not be a problem for me reap back what I sowed many years ago.

 

[BeckahC]

glynis,
I agree with you. I wish we did get equal pay and equal treatment... but here in the US that is very hard to find. We get X-Mas off company-wide, so I don't really have that problem, though I have to use personal days for my religion's holidays... but that's another matter entirely. I would gladly cover for anyone who needed to go home early or take a day to spend with their children. I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can hold a good career and still maintain a home and family. I still sometimes have difficulty with doing this just with me and my husband (we just married last year).

I think salary should be on merit, skill, capability, etc.... not based on gender or family, etc. Where I work it is generally known that there are no top level female executives and most females make at least 2K or more higher than what women make per year. Might not seem like a lot to some people, but for me I do feel a bit hurt by this... It means no matter how hard I work there will always be someone making more than me for doing the same, or even less... regardless of if they deserve it or not. And I say they do less because I have noted that women do tend to work harder than the men to "prove" themselve worthy of their salaries and positions.... now before anyone claims this as sterotyping or prejudiced, please let me tell you this is my observation here where I work that I have truely noticed in the past several years, seen with my own eyes. I truely believe that somewhere out there there are companies that must me more fair in there practices, but here it just isn't so.

Sorry to go on like that, but I really feel strongly about this right now, and needed a little vent to get through what is shaping up to be an incredibly busy day! BeckahC

 

[LesleyW]

Beckah, I think you mistyped something -
"Where I work it is generally known that there are no top level female executives and most females make at least 2K or more higher than what women make per year. " does not make sense unless female does not equal woman!!

As for Ruari's point about women taking time off to have babies. . . we don't all want to have babies! As a woman with no plans for babies it really pisses me off when people (I guess that's "society at large" I mean, not Ruari, who is making the point about people's attitudes not his own) think my capacity to contribute to the bottom line is jeopardised by the fact that I theoretically can also bear children. After all if I was a world class chess player, or Olympic standard athlete, I might in theory be planning to take long sabbaticals in order to compete. You would only know by asking me, ie treating me as an individual, not as a statistical liklihood.

Lesley

 

[BeckahC]

ooops! LesleyW is correct, I meant "males" make at least 2K more than Females!

I agree about being treated as individuals vs. stats! Although I do plan on having children, I don't plan on allowing family to affect my career. I don't usually work late hours at the office or over the weekends unless I have a big project to finish, so it really won't be a problem - as long as I am paid enough to cover daycare and still get enough after that to make it worth it! If I get paid less than what we need for childcare, how is that going to help me come back to work sooner, if at all. I think a lot of women havwe this problem... I've known at least 2 women for sure in the past 3 years that wound up having to stay home because they couldn't AFFORD to come back to work and pay for childcare! This is outrageous! :-O I cannot believe that valuable employees with valuable skills are allowed to leave simply because they find it less expensive to stay home!

I look forward to having a family with my husband, but it's getting so you can't have a family and a career at the same time without going into debt! (At least where I am right now)

Anyone else in the same boat? Or in a better position? BeckahC

 

[missbrat4476]

hey all, I'm new to this forum...this discussion caught me eye...thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth...

personally, I'm not sure where the rest of you live, but where I work, it seems to be fairly equivalent. I also know a few women who are less qualified than the men who are in positions under them (no pun intended). I work at an office where I can bring my kids to work with me, if necessary, and I make more than most the peeps around me doin' the same thing. I think your job is what you make of it. If you're ambitious enough, skilled enough and committed enough, you can generally get where you want and what you want, male or female.

I don't care to spend my time whining about the inequality of it all. I think we're blessed to live in this country where opportunities abound for everyone, regardless of race, sex, etc. I thoroughly understand that in some areas of the country, or in some cultures, oppression is a way of thinking that is perpetrated in the work place. But as a whole, we've all got it pretty darn good.





Bratty is as Bratty does....

 

[elizabeth]

Ruari, what country are you referring to that has government mandated maternity leave rights? In the US we have parental leave (not limited to women) in all but the smaller businesses (I think small may be 50 employees or less but I could be wrong about that).

Responding to your other comments, 'who knows why' less women in IT, this has been well documented for decades with the 'hard stats' you are looking for. Statistically speaking (and again not true of any given individual), females do not perform as well as a group on mathematical-spatial relationship thinking as males. This increases dramatically around puberty. It is known that this ability is directly related to and developed by physical movement. From infantcy, parents tend to restrict movement of female children to a greater extent than males, so at this point it's impossible to tell how much of the initial difference is genetic. Normally brains do not vary dramatically in development in later years (except in rare cases like recovery from brain damage), so the dramatic difference at puberty is related directly to socialization, when females tend to take over the role of telling themselves it's inappropriate for a female to appear smart, competitive, or math-&-science-inclined. This self-censorship is much more effective in retarding interest that censorship by others. The only places where females continue to improve in those skill areas are all-female schools.

Also I won't go into the details but the fact that females often can and do give birth does not (statistically) increase the amount of time they are away from work at a given job nor increase the number of job changes. It was true in the 50's when the stay-at-home-Mom became the new symbol of middle-class-American wealth. (Incidentally, the number of prescriptions written for tranquilizers and mood-enhancers increased during that period, i.e. the Beatles reference to "a little yellow pill" as "Mother's little helper&quot. But it has gradually decreased and by the 80's or 90's there was actually a greater percentage of females than males in the workforce in total.

BeckahC, if you do not want to give up your career when you have children, and you can't afford good daycare, you might want to talk to your husband about him staying home with the kids for awhile. The very few men who have told me they did this were absolutely blown away by the new perspective it gave them on life, and their relationship with their children, and found they had no repercussions with employers later.

 

[BeckahC]

Elizabeth... unfortunately, as supportive as my husband is with my decisions relating to work and motherhood... I do know he would not stay home... I doubt strongly that he will even be much help during the first year or 2 except in picking up on some of the household chores so that I'll have more time to be "mom"... he was raised believing that the parenting in early childhood is more strongly the mom's role and that only when the children are walking, talking and taking themselves to the bathroom does the father's role come into play for anything more than brief interludes of play and watching the baby for awhile while the mom goes shopping or looking for something... I am fine with that... he doesn't know the first thing about babies and I have always known that I will be the primary care-giver... as for working, he doesn't want me to be a bored stay-at-home mom, he wants me to continue to have my own life and career, just adding in being a mom to the mix, too. He doesn't mean this cheuvinistically, he's just not good with babies, likes them... just isn't good with them...

Plus, we need both our incomes to survive now... with a baby, it would be doubly so!!!

Missbratt4476...
I am in the Northeast US and I know that places do exist out there where everyone is equal... I also know I don't work at one! I don't consider what we've talked about here to be wining, but i do consider it venting... which we all need to do sometimes, I think.

I do agree that we have it pretty good as a culture... but I also think that if we stop believing that there is room for improvement then we will not continue to change things for the better! BeckahC

 

[glynis]

BeckahC

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.My husband was vaguely helpful when my daughter was a baby but not many men are willing to give up their careers to care for their children.My husband at the time was a paint sprayer and not earning anywhere near as much as I was.
Its true, a lot of couples need both incomes to survive,so, if you want children you still have to work!!!
My situation was compounded when my husband and I split up when my daughter was only 2 and a half year's old.
Thats a completely different story though!
Don't let that put you off.All I will say is work out how you are going to survive whilst you are on maternity leave.I don't know how things are worked out in the US but in the UK we don't get much in the way of benefits once the baby is born.If you are a high earner its a bit of a double whammy,not to mention the sleeepless nights etc!

 

[BeckahC]

Where I work right now I get 6 weeks maternity leave (paid I think) and I am entitled to 3 months job security, total according to the Family leave act (or something like that) which is a federal law. So, I plan to take the 6 weeks paid, and hopefully save up my 2 weeks vacation, and then only 1 month will be scaping by before I go back... Fortunately the medical benefits are fantastic, and as long as choose doctors and a hospital that is in network I will have nearly no out of pocket expense for the pre and post natal care, or the delivery either! That's a real load off my mind!

Anyway, as far as work goes, it is possible I may want to switch where I work and save for another year or two before we start our family... maybe I can find a place that will pay a bit better and have the same great benefits....

By the way, I have seen men take paternity leave here... it's not common, but it is possible... BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

Yes, as I said earlier I do believe this is the main reason our society doesn't change more quickly and people stay with stereotypes... people are comfortable with their stereotypes. If a woman is emotionally comfortable with working a full-time job and also doing most of the work connected to husekeeping and/or childcare, and raising not many males would argue to grow beyond that system, and thier children will be raised to do believe the same. Recent studies show that married males do about 17% of the work around the house (in terms of hours spent) and believe they do about twice that. To me, that says they are both comfortable with letting their wives work harder, and unaware of how hard their wives are actually working. Probably has something to do with the fact that (as we were saying above), women tend not to blow thier own horn about how much they do. Studies also show that married males are sick less often, live longer and are happier with their lives overall that bachelors. With women it is the opposite, unlesss they have pets. Apparently love still conquers all! Actually it was documented after the War Between the States that many slaves were reluctant to leave the plantations. They were only looking for a little bit more - a slightly better set of living conditions, and the relative safety of legal status as humans rather than property. Many were not ready for education rights, voting rights, equal treatment, etc. Similarly many women fought against the women's right to vote because they felt women were too emotional too make an intellegent decision about politics, and it took away from men's self-esteem. These male/female role beliefs aren't any different than our religious beliefs (what percent of people do you know who changed their religion?) or beliefs about other aspect of life. I read an interesting study that showed men and women who begin to earn enough to have a lifestyle that exceeds their father's (relative) earnings when they were about 5 years old begin to feel career-related anxiety. They feel out of place and exposed. Those who dramatically exceed thier parent's education or earnings levels often report the feeling theat they are "fakes".

 

[BeckahC]

Elizabeth,
That's very interesting.... I actually am on a "crusade" of sorts, to get my husband to pitch in more around the house.... it does take a lot of patience... for one thing... I didn't do the dishes for over a month... I put up with the stentch and only cleaned what I needed at a particular time for me to eat.. after 1 month, my husband started to make time to do the dishes a couple of times a week, now, he bought me a counter-top dishwasher and rinses everything when he's done with it and places it in the dishwasher... before he didn't even scrape his plates before placing them in the sink (if they got that far). I think we definitely cannot just sit back and accept how things are... we definitely muist work to change things to a point at which we are comfortable with them...

Another story - this time, work related... when I first started working where I work, I was a clerk. My duties involved many different little tasks, but I was not a secretary or administrative assistant.... I had a supervisor that demanded that I type things for him, even though I only had a "dummy terminal" and he had a PC. So I would type letters and print them up, then copy them onto letterhead, for him to sign. After a couple of weeks, I asked for a raise from our boss, explaining that if I knew I was going to be secretary, I would have requested a higher salary.... One week later, I was getting paid a couple dollars more per hour, and my supervisor was not having me type letters anymore...

I have found that I must speak up for myself.. because no one else will.... I think that is appropriate advice for anyone.... fight to get what you want and need, it probably will not be offered to you... ;-) BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

Hi BeckaC, good job (clap, clap) with your creative solutions. Your history at that company probably has a lot to do with your current income. I'm guessing few of the males in the company began as clerks/secretaries?

I thought it interesting by the way that your husband "bought you" a dishwasher. For now it sounds like it is still 'his' money and 'your' dishes but we've come a long way, baby. I had a similarly interesting situation with my husband, who also was raised to be a chauvanist, but is really a good guy underneath. I don't care for housework and when I was very young my mother advised me that to avoid it you had to marry rich or get a good job, and that marrying rich wasn't a very dependable solution. So I chose a well-paying career and got maid service. When my husband first moved in with me, the housework was no problemo. Once we hit money problems (with the moves), we learned a lot about each other. I learned to tune out a dirty house for a few years, (with occassional griping) and he eventually learned the difference beween doing the job and doing it well. The emotional resistance to 'women's work' made it a huge learning curve. I thought I'd grow old before he learned how to separate fabrics and colors in the laundry, and apparently, real men are not supposed to even notice stains. LOL We're just about back to the place where we can get a maid again. Hurray! All's well that ends well!

I've had much less resistance in the work place, as it seems easier for chauvanists (men and women) to accept women doing 'men's work' than men doing 'women's work'. Plus I've got training and experience in what I do at work. A lot of men don't recieve training and experience in housework.

 

[BeckahC]

Thank you Elizabeth!
I promise that when and if we have boys, they will not only learn to take out the garbage, but to do dishes and laundry as well!!! ;-)

Technically it is our $$, but he does earn more of it - truthfully, it's me who does the financial stuff for us... I just know we can't afford certain things, so I do without - he decides he needs something, goes out and buys it, and I have to figure a way to get us to the next paycheck with a roof over our heads! <:rollseyes:>

At work, though, it was a slightly uphill bttle going from clerk to programmer... but as I proved myself capable, they gave me more to do... they just believe in the &quot;gradually increasing you to where you should be&quot; as far as $$ is concerned.... BeckahC

 

[edfair]

BeckahC,
As a good mother you need to teach them to shop, cook, clean , and sew buttons too. Sure , they'll screw it up some, but their satisfaction will make the suffering worthwhile.
I had to learn it when I became custodial parent of 2 boys and had to get my life organized.
And now I have to suffer because my current wife gets her feeling hurt when I insist on doing my own laundry.
As far as the motherhood/work bit, I've seen several successful telecommute stories and highly recommend it if the skill levels fit. Ed Fair
efair@atlnet.com

Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply.

Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[BeckahC]

Thank you Edfair,
I actually don't sew too well and my husband does do a lot of the sopping with me... though he asks me what we need. I have a bad back, so anything that involves lifting he has to be involved with...;-)

We actually get our laundry done at the laundromat by them, when we first started doing our own, we fought a lot over it, and decided to save our relationship we would leave laundry up to a neutral party...

I only wish I could telecommunte... it's not really an option here where I work now... though once in a while if I need to do it I can arrange it...

It's very nice to hear that there are men out there who are not only willing to help, but like to help as well! BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

It's really great if you are handy around the house and can teach kids that too. Both my brothers and one of my sisters can tinker with their cars, household appliances, and even light electrical, plumbing and carpentry. Sure would save bundles if either my husband or I had the aptitude and/or skill to do that. We're thinking of taking a couple of courses at the local high school or technical college. And as Ed suggested, money management! The way I learned how to balance my checkbook was a very nice lady at the bank where I opened my first checking account while I was in college. It's amazing how many people don't learn to manage money. By the way, there's lot's of great, common-sense advice abuout managing money at motleyfool.com. The reason the rich get richer and the poor get poorer has at least a little to do with the fact that so many of the rich learn about good money management from their parents.

Doesn't it just figure that a thread entitled &quot;Women in IT&quot; would digress to &quot;what people should teach their kids?&quot; LOL

 

[BeckahC]

I didn't even think of that! <lol> Kids do seem to be on my mind lately, probably a little bit more than business is...

My husband is very handy... though it takes him a while to do things, he does gets things done and done right...eventually! BeckahC

 

[caveshepherd]

Elizabeth,

Sorry for the delay in responding, but yes IT IS very competitive here and like you mentioned because of small communities 'word of mouth' does carry a lot of weight!

To the original topic of this forum though, fortunately here in the Caribbean work in the IT industry is fair and equal between genders salary wise, but for women it is tough juggling home and work as most Caribbean men still have a 'train of thought' that women belong in the home ! This is becoming more common place to find women in the workplace and certainly IT.
As to formal certification, it is very important to have but experience is required ( most time along with degrees etc. ) for senior posts in all sectors.

I have 2 girls ( 16yrs. and 8yrs. ) btw ironically the reason for age difference is due to a tremendous amount of travel throughout the Caribbean in my first job. SO much so that my first daughter would refer to the airplane as 'My mummy's plane' !! Yeah, that bad.. Anyway those are things women have to deal with when juggling home/family/work. It's tough and it takes a lot of work.

I strongly believe women and men should/could share ANY job out there.. it all takes dedication and willingness. The mix of men and women is good to for human relation issues and most every day work related problems.

 

[MrTechnologist]

I have been in technology and engineering for over 20 years. The best engineer I worked with was a woman. I do not think the way you are treated has to do with you being a woman. I think male or female, we tend to create our own environments. If you get easily upset, you are a target. From the major companies I have worked with, all went out of their way to open doors to women. Once you become confident in your own abilities and have a proven track record (male or female), you then will be respected. Respect is usually earned, not given. Many butter bars in the military learn this lesson the hard way. The female engineer I and many other veterans admired, knew how to not take herself too seriously and didn't feel like she had to prove anything from a gender point of view. We all have to prove ourselves in our careers. I knew of many paper engineers who were worthless in the field. From my experience most technical people are great at technology, but are less then average with human relation skills. I hire those with both skill sets. Especially now that I can be chosey with all the reduction in force going on.