Women in IT 6

[glynis]

It seems that us women are out numbered in the IT Industry.
I also find that the men I work with honestly believe that women couldn't possibly know anything in the IT business and are condescending and chauvanistic.
I believe I can do my job as well as any man.Is this an IT thing or ,just a man thing.
The other point I'd like to make is that womens salaries in the industry are still not on a par with mens--WHY??????

 

[elizabeth]

Ahem... to get back on topic... ;-)

The salient point here is that, regardless of what most men or women or IT people or Unix admins etc. tend to be like, the crucial distinction is that it does not mean all of the members of that group fit the stereotype. There is no reason to treat all members of that group the same or believe they are the same. The insistance that every member of the group conforms to a stereotype is predjudice.

Regarding the theory of the cave man & women, although those ideas are so popular and fun to talk about, as far as I'm aware, they are unsupported by archeological or anthropological evidence. In recent hunting and gathering societies, it is the females that are responsible for obtaining 80% or more of the food supplies for the entire group through gathering. Hunting is often restricted to males, who devote much of the hunting time and energy to pre-hunt and post-hunt storytelling. The hunters also consume a disproportionate share of the hunt's results, leaving relatively little benefit of the hunt for the women and children. Besides this, larger stronger men are not strictly necessary for hunting, which is usually a skill sport. But they are needed for fighting off other men. It is not uncommon in many societies for men to simply take what they want from anyone smaller and weaker. Also, despite Hollywood fantasies such as Rambo, it is the use of tools (geek-man rather than brawn-man) that generally helps the individuals survive long enough to reproduce thier genes.

I don't know or care how much of this is true, or even significant; it's just another perspective. I hope I don't appearing to substitute one set of prejudices for another. Let's move towards becoming aware of our prejudices and getting past them in the way we think of each other and talk about each other.

 

[squash]

Elizabeth,
Just wanted to say thank you for your view on this subject.
It is most insightful and mostly based on good thinking rather than emotional reaction.

The issue started in this thread goes on in many forums for many area's of life everyday and probably will not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction today.

However this issue as a whole is getting better. We as a race (human) are figuring out these kinds of things better. We all still struggle with this issue and will hopefully continue to struggle with it until solved. The lack of struggle signifies a sort of giving up and accepting it.

I hope to hear more from you on life's issues.

Doug

 

[K]

I read this quote in an article and have saved it ever since:

' Programming usually requires a good understanding of business, rather than technology. "While men tend to be more interested with having fun with technology, women tend to like coming up with computer solutions that solve real problems," she said. '

Just some more "food for thought".
K

 

[DUBL07]

My experience...(pull up a chair) I

I work out of 1 of 10 offices in my company. Each has its own systems administrator and IS department. Out of 10 offices, 5 of the systems administrators/IS managers are women. (This was not done intentionally to please the EOE police - it was done because each administrator was selected as the best candidate for his/her job.)

It has been interesting though, working with our IS departments (80% men, 20% women). It seemed when I first started that I "never knew what I was doing" and many things were "my fault." I really did feel that it was because I was a woman. It then became apparent to me what part of my job was...to prove myself to the men in the IS department. I knew I could do my job, it was up to me to prove to them that I could do my job just as well as they could do theirs and that I could really add value to our IS department. It's taken almost a year, but I've done it. I've been able to earn the respect of the men in our office.

I've also been able to observe other newcomers to our department and I've learned something...it's not just me and it's not just women...we all have to prove ourselves to each other. We work in an industry where mistakes are very costly and whether we are man or woman...we all make mistakes. It's how we deal with our mistakes that makes us stand out.

 

[iza]

lol, glynis i bet you're american, and elizabeth you should be english or european ... (hope i'm right ))
i am a woman, i've been working in IT for more than 5 years now (and before that, i was the only girl in my school), and i've never ever felt ANY difference on whatever because i am a woman (actually, sometimes there were differences, but because *I* chose to - mostly when i was at school, manipulating men was sooo easy it would have been a shame not to play with this ;])
i think it's only an educationnal matter, as Notbob points out, and even this is slowly changing - the cave stories andd the "women tend to be like this, men like this" are (to me, i don't want to offend anyone here) pure bullshits - as elizabeth wrote on the cave stories, it's even the contrary, and categorizing men and women is close to racism (she's a woman, so she can wash, he's a man, so he can lawn ... conter example : my father used to cook and care for us (the kids) while my mother was working really hard). I mean, yes we are different, but no, we are not all different in the same way. I love beer, soccer, when i code i need to go straight to the keyboard (but it's not testosterone, i don't have these !), but i also love well done and clean job, and tea, and cooking (i do !) ... Men and women ARE different, and it would be SO sad if they were the same ! i love that this difference exists, i can't deny it. But 2 women are as different as 1 man and 1 woman.
it's too bad my english isn't good enough, what i'm trying to say is that as soon as you start to think there are "sides", some people are (or are not) your "allies", or even when you start to compare, even worst, when you think that someone got this or that BECAUSE he's a man, then YOU are the responsible for discrimination. Maybe nobody actually cared that you were a woman or a man, but YOU started to care and now it's too late ...

 

[elizabeth]

iza, Do I hear a new set of sterotypes being proposed re: Americans and English/ Europeans? I'm curious what that is about, though you can throw away your working model because I'm an American :-0

 

[iza]

elizabeth, you're absolutly right - i realized this as soon as i posted the reply !!! i'm sorry for this steeotyping ;]
i'll try to explain why i felt this difference ... from what i hear and what i read in forums, i feel like a lot of american women are posting questions on "why am i considered as different from a man ?" (and apparently they suffer from that) and yet at the same time laws are passed to make women even more "specials" like quotas, like not allowing a woman & a man alone in the same room or in the same lift (the only other countries where i saw such things where muslim countries), ... i mean it gives the feeling that it's just like they are not proud to be what they are - but now i've read you i'm reassured )) also i have american friends who are like you, so i'm hopeful

 

[iSeriesCodePoet]

How many women do you know who are the head of IT in a company?

In my company we have two seperate IT departments. Majority of the leading positions are women. Mike Wills
AS400 Programmer

 

[glynis]

Just for the record, I am ENGLISH !!!!
In the IT department I work for there are only two women,including myself.The men in the department seem to delight in being patronising to us.I have also had occasions that I have rang an outside software helpdesk to resolve a problem and when I have relayed the message to any of the men one of them will then phone the helpdesk again."just to be sure"This I find demoralising and unecessary.I do not have a communication problem as the same thing happens to my female colleague.This does not happen between the men in the office.
I am not in the habit of taking "sides" as so many of you have mentioned but it seems unfair that our judgement is picked up on 'only' because we are female.

 

[BeckahC]

glynis,

I have been reading this thread for sometime and I wanted to chime in my support and confusion...

I feel I face this type of thing everyday, not only from my work, but from my husband at times as well. He is also in IT and while he is very supportive of my career, there is the general feeling that his job is the more important and demanding one... I do try to point out to him that -he- is not the one programming by day and dishwashing and cleaning by night. I tend to think that we (women) have it more difficult on multiple fronts, which does make us different... but some people seem to feel the difference extends to our work itself, as oppossed to how we juggle work and home. (This is just my opinion, and I am interested in what others think about this too.)

My company, however, seems to support women at the workplace, we just seem to have to work a bit harder than the men to move up.

I hope everyone had a very merry/Happy holiday and will have a Happy New year, too!! BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

The book I mentioned above, "Talking 9 to 5" is not as humorous and slick as the Mars & Venus material, as that guy is a marketer of information rather than an original researcher. But what struck me about it was that many women are socialized to communicate in a way that they believe demonstrates respect for others, and many men are socialized to communicate in a way that they believe demonstrates self respect. As a result, women often hear and respond to a "missing" respect for others when they hear men speak, and men hear and respond to a "missing" self respect from women. Certainly there is a middle ground, where we respect ourselves AND others, but people are usually emotionally attached to their way of communicating. It's just not a priority for most people to work hard enough to learn to change their life-long behaviors. For me it's a priority because I see my way of communicating and my beliefs hold me back from the kind of "success" I would enjoy in my career if I were percieved as highly self confident. I see (undeservedly) highly self confident men and women create many problems in the world and I don't want to be responsible for doing the same, regardless of the financial payoff. But I have to admit that if I projected this image, I could be out there making FEWER mistakes than them. That's a female-socialization bias that I'm working with, putting more energy into avoiding mistakes than in just getting out there and trying something. So I'm trying to find the balance.

 

[BeckahC]

Elizabeth,

That is very insightful! I don't think I've really looked at it that way before... Most of the men I know at work do talk like they are, in some ways, full of themselves, and most of the women I know are willing to ask for help and ask to be shown something to better understand it instead of knocking head-to-wall before finally asking or looking it up... Now that I think about it, it makes a lot of sense. Not that it's right, but at least if we understand it, we can come up with ways to even things out a bit....
BeckahC

 

[gunthnp]

Beckahc you sure do slam men alot I'm sorry isn't that the same attitude you have a porblem with, it goes both ways. gunthnp
Have you ever woken up and realized you where not alive.

 

[Guest_imported]

To quote Bill (Voyager1) again:
"So, anyway - hang in there ladies. Keep working as hard as you have been and hopefully the rest of the industry will come around soon."

I don't think hanging in there would help changing things for the better

I work in IT for about 13 years now, at first I used to work for this huge major player on the market that has been on the market for ages. I learned a lot there but their arrogant way of working and the bureaucracy made it impossible for me to apply for certain positions because I lacked, in their view, the education required.
It worked out in a way that I had to show people that had the required education how things needed to be done. Even up to the point that I had to help thes guys out when they could not get the job done. Eventhough their position was higher and thus their salary.

Instead of whining about this I did my job, made sure people noticed and left when a better position with an other company came by. I've allways done this when I got the feeling that people were not taking me or the job I did serious.

So I would like to say to glynis get the hell out of there, and next time someone makes a call to check out what you said remind him that from now on he can do all his calls to Helpdesk himself.

To BeckahC I would like to say that it is bad enough you have to put up with those stupid narrowminded males at work, so make sure that at home things are as they should be. Jobs AND personal relations can be ended.

 

[elizabeth]

I saw a news article recently that showed turnover is higher for females than males in IS/IT. Workers attributed it to attitudes in the workplace. Not specifically sexism in terms of the way females were treated compared to males, but a macho corporate culture, where people were not treated with respect for their health, feelings, outside life, etc. Probably this sticks in my mind because so many people don't even seem to think of themselves as "being in relationships" with the other people at work. They seem to see each other as expensive but easily replacable parts.

I agree that looking for a better position is usually a good idea. And since "wherever you go, there you are," we often need to figure out we're doing wrong that leads us into relationships (jobs) that aren't healthy. There is usually something in myself I need to change in order to recognize and work towards a better situation. If I'm not self-confident, respectful, assertive, and mature, I'm not able to recognize and attract relationships (jobs) with other people who are. While I'm looking for something better, I get more benefit from examining myself, than trying to get other people to change. Sometimes when I change, other people change in response. Sometimes, I find we no longer want other people to change. Sometimes, I decide to change my situation.

 

[BeckahC]

gunthnp,
I am sorry if I offended, it was not my intention. I can see your point. Many women I know, myself included, seem to have adopted a slanted view of men, just as many men seem to have adopted a slanted view of women. I do try to keep myself objective and have worked with many men and women. Each have their positives and negatives, but I don't think I have ever really thought of these as a "male" or "female" things, at least I try not to.

Joanofark,
I apreciate your view of the situation, but I am of the frame of mind to work things out, both at work and at home. There are good days and bad days. If I am unhappy with the way I am treated, I speak up - sometimes it helps the situation, sometimes it doesn't. I have learned and am still learning when, where and who to speak about this with that will make the most difference. Things have been changing for me, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, but I feel if I stick with it and do my best to change things for the better, I am doing more good than if I were to give up.

elizabeth,
When I started working where I do now, I was a very shy, impressionable, young woman just starting out. When things did not go the way I thought or expected they would, I had a very hard time of it. But thanks to the support of some of my co-workers I improved myself, and therefore my environment. I am more self-confident and have gotten more training, and now people come to me for help. I consider some of my co-workers like an extended family and it tears me up to see any of them leave. I found that changing myself improved my situation some, and helping others change and grow in better ways has also helped.

I would also like to apologize for sounding like I was sterotyping... in a way I guess I was, but I did say what I have observed where I work...that's not to say that it isn't totally different someplace else BeckahC

 

[iza]

me again
first i'd like to apologize for stereotyping, but hey, at least it proved that most of the time you end up wrong when you stereotype
glynis you're english ? that's nice i've been working 3 months in scotland, the head was a woman, and she was very efficient and really good, and respected as such. I didn't feel anyone was judging her (or anyone else) in terms of "woman" and "man" - we were just working together, and only our actual skills were taken in account when it was time to "judge" (*if* there is a time to judge)
but i think Joanofark hit a good point : maybe men are not the cause here, but rather your company. I had to quit 2 companies before finding the one i'm working for, where i finally can work as i love to ). (and here half of the staff is men, half is women)
Also, BeckahC is right : don't hesitate to speak up. If i would see a man calling back the helpdesk after i have, he would hear me ! don't let any man (or woman - i can guarantee they are sometimes even worst than men for this !!) act like this toward you, make yourself hear, let them know that your work IS good and doesn't need monitoring. Like elizabeth said, women tend to dare asking, more than men, so use this force ! ask why they did call, why do they feel something could have been wrong with your work - maybe that'll lead them to re-think their attitude. At least that'll show them that they can't "walk on your feet" witout any reaction from you (i have no idea of the english/american expression, but i hope you get the image)(i hope also my english isn't too bad and you can understant what i'm writing ;])
oh and BeckahC i love the post on your husband ! i totally agree (i'm not married (... yet ;]] ...) but i'm living with my "fiance" since quite a long time) : it's hard to make a man realize that we have to work double : our job during the day, and washing etc at night ... even if i slowly make him "work" (cleaning, cooking, shopping, ...) more and more at home (even if he's a real macho, even if he doesn't work in IT and doesn't fully realize how tiring it can be when you have to deliver a software and you reach the deadline ) - i think it's a slow process, but it's worth the pain !! (hey, my mother succeed : my father was the one caring for the house and the kids, while she was the one with long work days - maybe that helped me not to think of work in "male" and "female" stuffs ... even if sometimes i'd gladly exchange my long working days with long boring days at home ;])
to finish, elizabeth's point is interesting, i had never thought of this : in IT, we are totally NOT treated with respect for our outside lifes (but in the company i'm working for now ;]) - but i had never seen this as a man/woman thing, i was seeing this as a geek thing ... and your post made me realize that men i know in it date women working in IT, while women i know in it tend to date men NOT in IT ...
ok, anyway i hope you all had a merry christmas, and you'll all start a great & happy new year

 

[caveshepherd]

Just one comment .. I live in the Caribbean and head the IT Dept. in a relatively large department store. I have also been in the IT industry for the past 20years. My position has earned me vast respect in the IT industry in the Caribbean, and I'm proud to be a woman a very competitive IT environment, especially in a relatively small region. So ladies don't give up, prove yourself !!

... my ten cents worth ... proved millions !! ..

 

[elizabeth]

I bet it IS a competitive environment! People must be clamoring for the chance to have a job in the Carribean!!! I LIVE for vacations and possible retirement to some place like that.

It's great to hear about people like you. Do you think the fact that it is a small community has helped, in terms of being able to build a reputation? Since blowing my own horn is not my strength, I find just as people are finally getting to know me and appreciate what I have to offer, it often seems time to move on for some other reason. And since in the US there is no real community, at the next place I'm pretty much starting from scratch. If it's a disadvantage to be a female, then that means I'm facing that disadvantage over and over.

I think maybe since there's little possibiity for a reputation, people may rely more on formal credentials; degrees, certificates, publishing articles, holding positions in professional organizations, etc. What do you think? I'm a project manager and just became certified by PMI, and I'm very surprised as how that makes me feel. Sort of like I when I show an interviewer a really good reference.

 

[Ruairi]

Hey all,
How about this, there are fewer women in IT because fewer women have the training and skills. The reason for that is simply that less women take the classes or spend the time to learn the skills on their own. Who knows why, thats just the way it is(i don't have hard statictics to back this up, but when i was in college a few years ago i never had more then 4 women in any of my computer science classes which often numbered over 200 students). I honestly don't think most companies would decide not to hire a qualified woman for an IT job just because she is a woman(like the CEO of Hewlett Packard). In fact in the PC world we live in today i would think that the relatively few women in the job market would have an advantage. It looks good for a company to have as much diversity in their work force as possible. As for the salary difference men don't have government mandated rights to maternity leave and most likely aren't going to quit their job when they start having kids, so maybe they really are a better investment in the long run. I know it's more popular these days to clamor about how you are being held down by the system because you're a woman, minority, etc... than to look at the common sense reasons for differences but i think that things usually are pretty fair if you think about it.
Sorry if i offended anyone, i guess the truth isn't always PC
Ruairi

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