Wiring new facility

[philote]

I work for a beer distributor and we're building a new warehouse that will allow us to combine the two warehouses we're currently operating out of. We only have approximately three dozen computers, a couple network printers, and two servers. We'll also want to implement some sort of wireless access in portions of our new facility. I have a decent understanding of networking, but have never had to design a network before. It is my responsibility to get together some sort of specification for the wiring, figure out where all the wall outlets for the network will be, and decide where to put the wireless AP's. The part I'm having the problem with is of course the wiring specs. I have an example of some specs from another distributor who just opened a new warehouse, but I don't know how good they really are. I guess I'm wondering what I'll need tell the contractor/installer when it comes that time. I guess I'll need things like cabling type, length, and how to terminate, but I'd like some advice on what else to have.

Also, who normally does the network installation in a new building, the electrical contractor or someone that specifically does networks? If it's a network-only company, I could probably work with them to decide what exactly we need and where. If not, I may decide to get some consultation with a company that specializes in networking.

 

[RSKing]

This is a small job, I'd recommend contacting several local contractors involved in voice/data cabling (this may include electrical contractors). Have them meet you (at the same time) to discuss a design-build project. Work out enough details at the meeting so that all contractors are bidding the same thing and have a clear enough picture to provide a bid.

Request a 'basis of design' document with their bids so you can verify that everyone is on the same page.

Have them bring references, check the references and make notes on who you're most comfortable with. Then check the bids and make the call.

Richard S. King, RCDD/LAN/OSP
TKG Consulting Engineers, Inc.

 

[philote]

I just found out we'll have an electrical contractor install the boxes and wall conduits. Otherwise, we'll have to find someone to run the cables. Any tips on how to find a good company who can do this, and do it right?

 

[Bobg1]

You might start with the yellow pages.
Look under Computers - Network

 

[franklin97355]

I agree with Bobg1. Most places will have contractors that are licensed to do this type of work. If you are in a large city you might do well to put out a RFP to see what is available. The contractors interested in the job will come out and look over the job and give you a proposal and a bid on the price.

I just found this site for information, I'm going to add it to my favorites.

http://web.anixter.com/Anixter/anixter.nsf/Standards?OpenForm

 

[philote]

Nice link, franklin. I'm making a note of the section on Electromagnetic Inteference, as the project manager was just telling me they'd run all wires in each office to a 4-unit box that'll combine power, backup power, cable, voice, and data. I didn't think having the power right next to voice and data was a good idea and now I have some backup on that.

As far as the cabling contractor, I was just wondering if there's anything in particular I should look for or watch out for. But I'll be sure to heed RSKing's advice and check references.

Thanks for all the input so far!

 

[AvayaNovice]

First thing: If possible, have the boxes eliminated and replace them with mudrings. A mudring is much better for terminating data cabling, as it provides a larger amount of room. If you're doing surface conduit, with surface mounted gang boxes, then try and get them a little deeper so that they allow for proper termination space.

Secondly, make sure that the conduit used is large enough. How many drops are going to each box? Make sure to put in some extra, if you've got 36 computers, 2 printers, 2 servers -- that's 40 total. Since most patch panels are going to come in 48, you could do that and end up with 8 extra ports to place around the building, or if you feel like you may need more than that in the future -- go for even more.

At a minimum, conduit should be 3/4"

Do not install voice/data in the same gang box as electrical components. A) this is a violation of NEC code, B) it may cause serious havoc, C) it's dangerous to work with. Carlon makes an addon ring that will attach a second termination space to an existing electrical gang box if you care about being in close proximity.

At a minimum, install Category 5e cable.

I would reccomend making a nice space for a telecom/server area, you don't have a huge amount of data/voice cabling needs, but make a good size area for it so that racks can be installed easily, and MACs can be performed without a headache.

There are many more things that are a good reference to do, but if you could explain your application more -- that'd be great (as far as voice key system as well).

 

[philote]

Thanks for the great advice, Avaya!

Currently, our project manager wants to put in a four-unit box. One will have power, one will have voice/data, one will have coax, and the other will be extra network or power. I don't know if this would be against code like you said, but it still doesn't seem like a good idea to have power and voice/data so close. The idea is to have one of these 4-box units in each office.

As far as a telecom/server area, I'll have an entire room as big as my new office for all our telecom, networking, and servers, as well as a repair bench. Instead of fire sprinklers we'll have halon, we'll have something on the floor other than carpet to reduce static, and we'll also have our own temp control for that room.

Unfortunately, we'll stay with the servers we have, which are not rackmount. But I'm hoping to get some decent furniture in there to maximize space.

 

[AvayaNovice]

I'd just get some rackmount shelfs, and put your servers on those. That's the standard way to tackle that problem, as long as they'll fit.

As far as a four unit box... I'm not understanding that. Are you meaning four gang boxes next to one another? One box with dividers to make it into four? You'll have to elaborate.

If the cable for data or video, or phone is in the same physical gang box as power, that is illegal.

Secondly, like I said -- PLEASE have them put in mud rings or some type of ring so that the termination space is good, otherwise you'll end up with a major headache.

 

[skip555]

I would suggest at least two locations in each office for voice and data I always try to get them on oposite walls

that way if you need to double up on office space later your covered also office layout often dosn't work out is well in reality as it did in the drawings

the desk that was going to face the window gets too much sun and moves over to the far wall

at this point cable drops are relativly cheap and far better to have unused ones then phone and data cables running over doorways held up with pins or tacks or hanging from the ceiling grid by bent paper clips becouse the one outlet is on the wrong wall.

as to finding someone to do the work ask peaple you know who they use and if they would recommend them

personell recommedations are far better than responding to a yellow page ad. yellow page ads are expensive and you will be paying for it keep in mind anybody with a business phone can buy a full page ad in the book. you want to find some one who has been in business awhile and has satisfied customers who are calling him back

not somebody who has to spend a lot on advertisng to attract new customers becouse he only keeps them for a short while

 

[TouchToneTommy]

We dealt with something like this. It was a box that was three gang wide, with dividers between each gang. Power went into one section, voice/data into another, and a third for coax. It had a face plate that covered all the sections together, kind of like the Decora series. Only problem was you had to use their jacks, which were very unusal in how they terminated, which made the job go a lot slower.

For a marginal finished "look", I'd really recommend against it and instead go for standard 4" boxes with single gang mud rings, or just mud rings alone.

 

[AvayaNovice]

Tommy,

I've seen those as well, those were the carlon products I mentioned. I think they're kind of funky... but oh well, they do look nice all on one plate. But I'd stay stick to mudrings...

 

[philote]

Ok, back to finding a contractor to run the cables. As was suggested, I'll ask around for recommendation. But what types of certifications/licenses do I need to look for these companies to have? And would I primarily look at computer networking companies, electrical contrators, or what?

Also, as I think I mentioned above, I need to get together some sort of cabling specification. I have one from another company that our project manager has worked with. He said they hired a company to help create their specification, and this company also won the bid to do the work (go figure). Is this common?

 

[franklin97355]

TIA 569-A is a good starting point to build from. When we spec a job we require it meet NEC, TIA/EIA 568-a, and local building codes. That way we don't have to re-write the spec every time something changes. If we have reasons to deviate from those specs all we have to do is include the changes.

 

[AvayaNovice]

I'd say you don't want an electrician, unless they specialize in low voltage installs. Usually alarm companies do low voltage work, although I'd ask for references because that's somewhat hit or miss. Your best bet is finding a company that installs telephone systems, they usually always do data cabling as well. Again, look at references.

Make sure they do plenty of work, and ask them about what standards they follow. You'll want to make sure they have their NEC standards down, that way you don't get screwed at inspection. (Local codes as well).

 

[philote]

Can anyone give me any example specs to look at? The only one I have to use as a reference is manufacturer specific (Leviton) and seems to be much more detailed than what we initially need.

How does bidding for these types of projects normally work, what kind of info is given to the bidders? Do we really need to give them a set of detailed specifications? Are these questions better suited for another forum?

 

[mikeydidit]

If you leave me your email address I will send you what I have in place for our campus. These are the spec's that we hold our venders to.

Mike Jones
LSUHSC

 

[philote]

That'd be great, thanks!

kbosak (at) silvereaglellc.com
(obviously remove the spaces and replace the @, I wanted to make it harder on those pesky address harvesters)

 

[Jtodd]

You should also be able to boiler plate specs from Panduit as well. Again, they are very detailed, and Panduit specific, but there is a lot of stuff that you can gleen from them. I've actually used their performance numbers in our standard specifications.

As for the details, well, I think you would want them. As an example, our specs are 140 pages long. Granted that includes a section for demolition, testing & labeling, outside plant, and anything else that needs to be done. If you leave out too many details, it leaves loop holes for contractors.
So yes, you do need to give them detailed specs to do a bid. The info is given to bidders via the construction documents (drawings & specifications) so if it's not in either of those locations, don't expect the contractor to do it. At least not with out a change order, and those are bad.

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[philote]

Thanks to everyone for the help so far. I've been doing some more research and found that I may need to write an RFP instead of a specification document, but I'm not exactly sure what the difference is. It sounds to me like a spec is much more detailed than an RFP, which would be great because I'm not sure of the details I'd put into the spec. Does anyone have any helpful thoughts about what to put in an RFP and how specific it should be in order to give it out to the bidders? I mean, do I have to list all the EIA/TIA standards that need to be followed and what types of testing need to be done or can I simply explain how we plan on using our network, how many drops/outlets we'll need, and where they'll be located? Also, any examples are still welcome.