Windows for Warships

[MasterRacker]

This story is about the British Navy's decision to use Windows 2000 to run it's warships - which is worthy of discussion by itself. Also, however, I would like to ask if anyone knows if the Bill Gates testimony from April 2002 mentioned is available online somewhere.

http://www.theregister.com/2004/09/06/ams_goes_windows_for_warships/

Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...

 

[Chance1234]

Theres probably some 90 year old peep on the admiriality saying "We had windows on warships in our day i cant see what the problem is "

Chance,

Filmmaker, gentlemen and explorer

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[robbieguy2003]

I don't think windows was the right choice for this type of application.

I think a Linux/Sun/HP-UX Would be a safer bet. Although i think windows is good it does have a tendancy to winge and fall over for what seems to be no reason.

[ramble analogy]
Linux just stays there and gets on with it. I Suppose in military terms you could say windows is the Territorial Army Bloke and Linux is the SAS type bloke.
[/ramble analogy]


Triangular sandwiches taste better than square ones.

Rob

 

[chiph]

The US Navy had a test ship that ran on NT 4.0

It got stranded off the Virginia coast when the network locked up.

Chip H.


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[BakeMan]

Shouldn't it be "Portholes for Warships"

No really, I think that Windows on a warship is about as usefull as a screen door on a submarine...

or maybe

"Periscopes for Submarines"


BAKEMAN

 

[hotfusion]

I'd have thought really that given the enormous budget the military have access to, and given the rather narrow range of tasks a warship computer would be asked to perform, a purpose-designed operating system would have been in order.

Using what is basically a domestic operating system for this task seems to be a little silly in such an important area - a bit like taking the whole toolbox out to the car when all you really need is a screwdriver......

Regards, Andy.
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[asrisk]

I'd like to see the Safety Case for using Windows for Command & Control, and Combat System functions. It seems unlikely that Windows was written according to any known and demonstrable software design/test methodologies...

However, I can understand the incentive to do this, i.e. reducing through-life support costs, and increasing flexibility for future upgrades.

 

[Tarwn]

I don't want to starta Linux/Windows argument here, but I would think that using something from the Unix branch would be a lot more solid then using Windows. I mean there is a lot of extra baggage with Windows plus a marked lack of solidity. They could simply build a customized *nix install with some custom applications and take advantage of that stability and likely smaller install. Sure you would have to maintain the software, but I am guessing Windows needed software installed also - heh, I was just thinking how cool it would be to see a little window pop up when you start the computer the first time - "Plug 'n Play Battleship detected...Searching for Drivers..."

Back on topic, I gues you could probably pare down the Windows system to the point where it was not possible to get to solitaire/etc, and test your software to extreme levels to make sure it didn't cause BSOD's, long term memory leaks, etc. But I would still be concerned about the fact that Windows seems to need to a reboot fairly often to work at prime efficiency. Although I am sure there are some guru's that can install it and it's software in such a way as to make reboot completely unnecessary, and the chances of doing that are much higher in a system designated to run a limited number of apps, but I have seen nuclear control systems/interfaces running on Windows that were rebooted monthly to keep them running, and DrivingTheWarship1.0 is probably not a heavily field-tested realtime-critical application like control systems software for manufacturing and energy plants...

I dunno, ...guess I agree with everyone else on the stability issues and such

 

[lionelhill]

I liked the reference to a "flagship operating system". Wonder if that was intended.

It brings a whole new meaning to the words "pirate software". And configuring ports could become quite a task, too.

Hey, Bakeman, if Microsoft ever do bring out "portholes" for naval computers, would it be an all-round improvement...

 

[pmonett]

I cannot fail to think that is the start of the Biggest Blunder Competition that will take off as soon as one of these vessels starts going haywire. It might make for a few good laughs, but I will not forget that the ship carries nuclear warheads. Christ, I'd hate to be a MS representative having to explain that the latest Sasser-type worm managed to launch one by mistake.

I can put up with Windows in ATM machines and such. But you do not build a car assembly line on Windows, now do you ? Would anybody seriously think about trusting a life support system to WinXP ? I hope not. Windows 2003/XP is good for some things, like office stuff and supporting non-critical business areas. But in time-critical, always-on environments in the industry and even more on a warship, the only place I'd envision Windows would be in the staff room, as a game console. Not on the desk of the weapons officer, nor even in the hands of the pilot.

The fact that high-ranking military and political officials have deemed MS to be good enough says more than I care to hear about the state of our world today.

I can only hope that there won't be hell to pay when the system breaks down. Because nobody will be surprised that I'm convinced it will.

Pascal.

 

[SteveGlo]

Does anyone think they'll actually test under battle conditions (EMP,etc) or will it just be another 'it-is-envisaged' scenario ?

Where I work it isn't unknown for u-know-what to crash when someone nudges the power cable.

Perhaps we are heading for a Star Trek scenario where virtual battles are fought, then after a cornputer works out the relative casualties they troop merrily into disintegration chambers ?

 

[kmfna]

bump all that, as soon as they launch that badboy, I think I'm going to move as far as possible from any water that it may be able to enter....maybe somewhere in the mountainous region of China....You know that as soon as it is being used, someone is going to get bored and say, "hey, I wonder what would happen if I cracked this warship and started playing with commands." It was nice living without the threat of being nuked by my own country's military. Oh well, I suppose those days are over...think "duck and cover" still applies?

Kevin

- "The truth hurts, maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with no seat, but it hurts.

 

[SteveGlo]

kevin

You are so right about the boredom factor and it ain't just crackers you need worry about - its also Corporal Nobbs on the staff.

About 30 years ago I was in a certain place in West Germany as was. On the graveyard shift one of the ops 'unhooked' the computer equipment that was part of the 'monitoring' process and ran some text based baseball game on it.

How long before they mix up 'Armageddon - the Game' and 'Armageddon - the Reality' ?

Steve

 

[GlenJohnson]

I know of a worldwide company that is much bigger than the british navy that runs a large portion of it's cash registers with NT 4.0. Things just keep on working. I do agree that they aren't needed to save lives, but they are used to take in billions.

Glen A. Johnson
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[johnherman]

How about a game of chess?

No, Global Thermo Nuclear War.

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[acidbrain]

ROFL.
Let then use windows ))))) Just tell us when it is installed and we'll take a look )
We'll play a little war on the sea ) (kiddin)
Now that's a good choice!! How in the world did they come to the ideea of using wondows??? Chance1234 may be right. Don't wish no1 in the middle of a war to be shown a "magic blue screen" on a warship.

 

[Techdawgs]

Since we are talking about computers and the Navy I thought I would put in my 2 cents, given the fact that I am speaking with 15 years of Navy experience.

Now I know that windows is not the most reliable of operating systems, but you also need to look at the big picture. The Navy has been using Windows since it first came out and every computer on every warship has it installed. Now can you imagine the time and money it would take to convert all the software and files to a new operating system. Also when is this supposed to be done? For those of you who don't know, yes the ships do come in for upgrade/overhaul periods but this is on a set rotation and it would take several years for this to happen.

On another note, eventhough a lot of systems are using windows or some other operating system software, when it comes down to launching that missle or firing that gun the Navy still uses good old reliable human interaction of pushing a button.

 

[pmonett]

bigdawgs,

I can understand that individual PCs under Windows exist in warships. However, the article reference that started this thread clearly indicates that the initial OS used was UNIX, and that this was a migration to Windows.
Now, I am not a UNIX expert by any means, but it seems to me that it would cost a lot less to convert whatever apps were used to a given flavor of Linux (or use Solaris, its not like its unreliable, hmm ?), than to convert the stuff to a Windows environment. Windows is totally different from any Unix, and that means tha applications will largely have to be re-written, instead of adapted.
But what really irks me in this affair is that there is not one major industrial player that uses Windows in the production environment. I doubt very much that there is a single car maker has Windows on the assembly line. I do not think that any tire maker has Windows next to the vulcanisers. I am convinced that there isn't a shipyard in the world that controls ship building via Windows. Okay, I don't have proof, but I am convinced that, where there is need for reliability and consistency, when it is a critical business process, Windows is absent.
And what, I ask, is more critical than the proper functioning of a military vessel ? Is there anything that has so great a need of being ready at an instants notice ?
Windows is inherently not up to the task, period. Windows has set the standard for near-real-time operation, but not for true real-time operation. Windows still cannot boast five nines in reliability. And Windows integrates applications that have security holes the size of China - and is still slowly battling its way out of that issue.

I am glad to know that missile launching is controlled manually, but I ask : for how long ? Now that some deadbrain let himself be bought by corporate money, how long before some dimwit decides to integrate firing procedures in Windows ?

This is a dangerous precedent, and I just hope the only bugs we will see are ones that we can laugh about.

Pascal.

 

[hotfusion]

There was mention earlier about missile launches stll being initiated by the good old button;

My worry here is whether there will be, in the future, a direct electrical link between that button and the firing mechanism, or whether there will be some kind of software positioned between the two. A little like we see in some modern cars where the throttle no longer controls the carburettor directly, but sends a signal to an engine management unit for processing, which in turn then makes electronic adjustments according to mapped data.

If this kind of 'progress' is applied to the missile launching scenario, bugs, interference and good old viruses could wreak havoc with such a system.

Software and the equipment for running it is far too susceptible in my opinion to problems such as mentioned above, along with the effects of EMP to be used safely for such 'mission critical' applications.

Regards, Andy.
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[GlenJohnson]

Check out
Microsoft gets pie in face

and
Clean up time
Too good.

Glen A. Johnson
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