Windows 8 Merging Windows Phone with Windows Desktop

[vacunita]

I'm not entirely sure adding an overlay of Windows Phone Tiles over what appears to be a standard Windows 7 Desktop is that much of an improvement.

I'd rather they change their start menu and search functions to something less resource intensive and something a little nicer. I mean the basic start menu hasn't really changed since Windows 95. If they incorporated the Tiles feature to the Start Menu so instead of a list of apps you get a nice grid that would work.

Something that is truly integrated, and not simply slapped on top of the existing stuff.

If I wanted to slap something else on top of my Windows experience I'd use Stadock's Object Desktop.

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Phil AKA Vacunita
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Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

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[dilettante]

The Metro Start Panel does take the place of the Start Menu unless you do a registry tweak.

 

[vacunita]

Judging by all the videos I've seen, it simply sits on top of it. You can even see the Taskbar and star menu button in certain circumstances like in this video at around the 3 minute mark. When he's showing how you can still use the older Office Apps. It immediately brings up a regular Windows 7 taskbar and start menu button.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I

Which means it is overlaid but isn't really integrated.

I think they did what they always do, and simply overlay something else on top of their basic Windows display engine.

And of course nothing has been said about how customizable the Start Panel is going to be. Is it going to be easy to change the background images of tiles. Is it going to be easy to re-arrange tiles? etc...



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Phil AKA Vacunita
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Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

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[vacunita]

I'll correct myself since I've looked a little deeper. It seems it is integrated. So I apologize for the outburst.

With that said, I'm looking forward to a test run when this almost 3Gb behemoth finished downloading.

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Phil AKA Vacunita
----------------------------------
Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

http://behindtheweb.blogspot.com/

 

[dilettante]

By default the "Start orb" button brings up the main Metro Start penael. If you mouse right into the lower left cormer the 4-item "charm bracelet" pops up, which I guess most users will think is the new Start Menu.

 

[LloydSev]

I am definitely looking forward to Windows 8, if nothing else for it's performance improvements over Windows 7.

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[kjv1611]

I'm not crazy on the panels interface idea, thought not enough time yet to test it. It'd be interesting to test one day, just gotta find some time to do so.

 

[kjv1611]

Sorry... Tiles. Not Panels... wrong word.

 

[dilettante]

I've been calling things with tiles on them panels. No idea what the proper word might be.

As far as performance goes faster boot/shutdown is all I have noticed, though there might be more.

The real performance boost is supposed to come in the Metro apps. These are meant to be light and start (more or less) fast, sleep instead of terminating for subsequent reuse, and eliminate most synchronous operations and the gratuitous multithreading people often use because their code will block.

 

[vacunita]

Supposedly the Metro apps will be HTML 5 and Javascript based entirely, so they'll be web apps rather than full on exes. Which is why they'll sleep rather than terminate. Internet Explorer will be inevitably integrated into the OS. *sigh*
Hopefully IE10 will be a better browser than all its predecessors so it can cope with the apps.

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Phil AKA Vacunita
----------------------------------
Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

http://behindtheweb.blogspot.com/

 

[dilettante]

I don't know where you got that.

Metro apps can currently (dev preview) be written using JavaScript, C++, or .Net languages. JavaScript must use HTML5 for its GUI markup and several HTML5 services, while the other languages can use XAML for that. According to Microsoft folks other vendors could build compilers and such for Metro as long as they conform to a long list of requirements.

Even C++ native code apps will be suspended instead of terminated.


Internet Explorer itself is not used by Metro applications, which are not Web applications. However a large chunk of the "guts" of IE (mostly the Trident rendering engine, the new JavaScript engine, and some other pieces) ARE used.

There is a Metro IE and a regular IE in Win8. The Metro IE is built on top of the "guts" from IE itself kind of like other Metro applications.

The entire WinRT stack (the stuff sitting under Metro applications) is optional and can be shut off on a per-user basis. This takes pretty much all of Metro with it, leaving a more or less Win7-style Desktop only. The logon screen, etc. still look the same though since Metro is still on the machine.

Windows Explorer was decoupled from IE with Vista and that stays the same. That was one of the bigger ways IE was integrated into the OS, and little more remains until Metro came along.

 

[vacunita]

I got it from Microsoft's own promotional videos. The Metro UI according to them is and I quote:

"a new platform based on standard web technologies so HTML 5 and Javascript..."

So maybe "entirely" was a little extreme, but they are promoting it as a web based interface. Which means IE will inevitably have to be the engine behind it.

As far as IE goes, the fact they have a different IE for the Metro UI doesn't mean it will be any better than the current IE. Only that it will be integrated to the OS. In fact if it is built on top of the "guts" of the current IE its going to likely have the same compatibility issues its always had.

The entire WinRT stack (the stuff sitting under Metro applications) is optional and can be shut off on a per-user basis. This takes pretty much all of Metro with it, leaving a more or less Win7-style Desktop only. The logon screen, etc. still look the same though since Metro is still on the machine.

What's the point of that. I don't want to shut down features of the new OS, I'd like them to work properly.

Its like having a car with power windows, and offering a manual handle in case you don't want to use the glitchy power windows system. How is that a good thing?

What has Windows Explorer have to do with anything?

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Phil AKA Vacunita
----------------------------------
Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

http://behindtheweb.blogspot.com/

 

[dilettante]

The point of turning off Metro is that Metro is not primarily designed for use without a multitouch display. So typical home or office desktops and laptops will find it an obstacle instead of an advantage.

For example while Metro is functioning for a user there is no Start Menu on the Desktop at all anymore. The "Start Button" takes you back to Metro.


Windows Explorer is relevant because it was implemented as a "view" of IE from the time of the Windows 95 Desktop Update (IE 4.1) until Vista came out. You were the one complaining about IE's integration with Windows.


Metro is not "Web based." If you think that, you don't know what the Web is.

Metro does indeed support a development model making use of technologies often used in a Web browser. But so did lots of things such as HTAs, email using HTML message formatting, Sidebar gadgets, and lots of other things. None of these (including Metro) need to make any use of the Web at all. Yet they might be using HTML or XHTML or HTML5 now, they might be using JavaScript, they might be using native code libraries, they might be using HTTP, etc. And so might any program written in almost anything.

Unplug and turn off all networking and most Metro applications run fine. They are not Web based.


The majority of people who cobble up Web pages and think of themselves as "Web developers" are never going to get a Metro application beyond display of a static page running. That requires more actual programming background than they have.

Try reading through the information at Metro style app development. Once you go beyond the "Hello World" example things start to look quite different. Drill down to APIs for Metro style apps and most Web-monkeys' eyes will start glazing over.


Maybe you could go to BUILD2011 and get more information. Skip the keynote addresses and other fluffy-stuff videos. maybe try Tools for building Metro style apps and Building high performance Metro style apps using HTML5. There are also sessions on developing with C++ and .Net there.

No, the "HTML5 + JavaScript" thing is not the center of Metro at all, though perhaps one people seem to get hung up on because the press latched onto it.


Better yet, download the Developer Preview and try it out yourself.

 

[vacunita]

Microsoft is the one pushing the Web angle, I'll quote from your own links:

You write Metro style apps using familiar technologies like HTML5, JavaScript, and Cascading Style Sheets, Level 3 (CSS3), or XAML, with C++, C#, or Microsoft Visual Basic code-behind. This way you can rapidly prototype, refine, and sell your apps.

Notice how the first thing they mention is HTML 5, Javascript and CSS.

Even they call their programming techniques that sue HTML and Javascript as "Web"
[red]Web[/red] programming for Metro style apps using JavaScript


They are Web Apps. Whether they use an internet connection or not, any applications developed using HTML, and Javascript are by their nature considered to be Web apps.

Microsoft is trying to sell this fact more than the other programming languages, which incidentally use XAML Microsoft's own Markup language to generate the UI. XAML is derived from XML and HTML which means that by its nature is also a Web oriented language.

Being web oriented does not mean you automatically require an internet connection. But these technologies are known as web technologies because they were conceived and developed for the Internet.

These are web apps don't be fooled. They are just a modern variety of them.

But none of this is the point I was trying to make. The point was that web developers like myself by the way who know the ins and outs of IE, and know the compatibility issues it has are still going to find those in the development of the apps. Unless the engine being used to power the new Metro UI has been upgraded and fixed.

Trust me I'm much more than a web cobbler, and I know what IE can and can't do. And its always a hassle to get IE to behave like the other more standard compliant browsers. There's always differences in its Javascript engine, and in its ability to render HTML in contrast with other more compliant browsers.






----------------------------------
Phil AKA Vacunita
----------------------------------
Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

http://behindtheweb.blogspot.com/

 

[LloydSev]

I'm not really quite sure why you are getting so hung up on terminology, as it's the execution and operation that matters. C++ applications on your desktop are the same as they are in a browser, but it's only web content when in your browser.

Stop thinking in terminology and start paying more attention to execution.

HTML5 is a programming language. It may have been designed with delivering web content over the internet in mind, but that does not make it it's only use. The same example for JAVA. It is mostly used by everyday people as web content, however JAVA is designed as a complete OS environment that can sit on other OSes or on it's own on hardware like Windows itself.

Again, it's not the terminology that matters, the flashy words that sound fun and are easy to propagate in the press to get good reviews, it's the execution and how it's used that matters.

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[dilettante]

Don't get Java confused with JavaScript, we're already having enough trouble! ;-)

 

[hairlessupportmonkey]

no sir I dont like it"

Ive installed the tech demo in Virtual Box and the Metro tiles would simply do mine and many of my customers heads in. Lest hope theres an enterprise edition with them off by default. is MS forgetting about their business customers and getting too hung up on the mobile market? (yes pun intended ;-) )

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[dilettante]

It's still a long way from RTM. Almost anything might change before then.

 

[LloydSev]

I didn't confuse JAVA and JavaScript. JavaScript is a hack language that runs in your browser only and is dependent entirely on the support of the browser. JAVA is a completely enclosed environment that is run by a program running either on the system that can load and execute content in your browser, as an app itself or it can be used as it's own OS. It worked in my previous post for the point I was making.

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[dilettante]

JavaScript is far from limited to running only in a browser. On Windows systems you can use it in classic ASP pages in IIS, as desktop script from the WScript, CScript, MSHTA, and Sidebar Gadgets hosts, within Office applications, and within custom software either directly or via the Microsoft Script Control.

HTML (including HTML5) is most certainly not a "programming language" but instead a markup language like RTF, BBCode, the TGML used here in Tek-Tips, etc.

Java is a programming language that produces byte code (or pseudo code) to be interpreted just like any other scripting language by a "JVM" or it can be JIT-compiled for somewhat faster execution. Java can be used to make programs of a sort that run within a shell provided along with many JVMS, as browser applets, and other types of components. Java is not an operating system.


Java has no special place or new role in the context of Windows 8 like JavaScript does. In Windows 8 JavaScript gets a new role and another place it can run, as a Metro application. It is one of the three ways you can create Metro appications now, and Java is not one of the three.

However I'm no fan of JavaScript myself.