Windows 2000 Certification. . . Getting on my soapbox 1

[Pinkman]

According to MS Win 2K is suppose to be an all encompassing OS that does &quot;everything&quot; and makes it &quot;simple&quot; for the MIS/TECH person.&nbsp;&nbsp;HA - thats like MS is the most reliable and stable OS in the world and that BSOD''s are just a made up story that our grandfathers told us about - along with there trek to school with no shoes, in freezing weather, and uphill both ways!<br><br>Let me give you a simple example . . . MS is retiring the TCP/IP elective exam.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? ? ? ? ? Because there reasoning is that the MIS/TECH person does not have to know about these things because Win 2K is going to &quot;handle it.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;That is like giving matches and gasoline to a pyro-maniac.<br><br>I think that the TCP/IP exam is the most crucial exam to know, take and understand.&nbsp;&nbsp;It gives you a basis for almost all networking concepts from routing to IP addresses.&nbsp;&nbsp;Yet, in one swoop - MS is retiring this exam along with a few others that are affiliated with the MCSE 4.0 track.&nbsp;&nbsp;Am I the only one who thinks this way - that this is not right or do I really need to sit back and exam the issue more?<br><br>Also, If you are an MCSE you have to get certified for Win 2K or your current certification will expire.&nbsp;&nbsp;Does MS think that NT 4.0 is going to disappear Dec 31 2001?&nbsp;&nbsp;Or that every company currently on NT 4.0 is going to upgrade therefore you HAVE TO KNOW Win 2K and spend more money to take the exams at $100 a pop??<br><br>Realistically, upgrading to Win2K is no cheap date!&nbsp;&nbsp;We're talking about thousands of dollars - for even a small company - to do the upgrade.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>To sum up everything . . . retiring the MCSE 4.0 needs to be done - but not for a few more years.&nbsp;&nbsp;When Win2K is more stable, reliable, more secure, and used by the majority of companies and users of the network community -&nbsp;&nbsp;then the certification upgrade should be required.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am not saying that they should do away with the Win2K certification BUT the mandatory upgrade and retirement of the MCSE 4.0 should be re-thought.<br><br>Besides - does your NT 4.0 network ever &quot;retire.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Pinkman<br><br><br>

 

[NedLudd]

I agree with the sentiments on TCP/IP.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, those of us with the TCP/IP exam will have the advantage.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm amazed how many sysadmins I meet who don't understand the protocols.&nbsp;&nbsp;I got my present job because the CTO was impressed by that knowledge.&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree that you can't be a good network engineer without understanding TCP/IP, but I don't really care if other people don't bother to learn it - more opportunity for us!

 

[Karl Blessing]

well, look at it this way, most of the MS Certs are based on how *Microsoft* wants you to do it, without learning TCP/IP you're pretty much stuck with letting Win2k do it for ya, especially when you try to move to some other OS like Linux or a Unix server, one of the certs I had was like Project management the Microsoft way(even tho the exam was called developing web applications with visual interdev 6 hehe)<br><br>you think this is a way to make you more dependant on microsoft tools? <p>Karl<br><a href=mailto:kb244@kb244.8m.com>kb244@kb244.8m.com</a><br><a href=

http://kb244.8m.com>

</a><br>Experienced in : C++(both VC++ and Borland),VB1(dos) thru VB6, Delphi 3 pro, HTML, Visual InterDev 6(ASP(WebProgramming/Vbscript)<br>

http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=629151

 

[Zelandakh]

As any engineer worth his salt knows, TCPIP is the fundamental underpinning of most decent networks today, be they LANs, WANs or the Internet.<br><br>A lack of knowledge of this for new MCSE 2000 people will mean that those people who do know TCPIP will be better placed technically. The big downer will come from companies who decide that MCSE is over rated because in fact they do not know networking properly.<br><br>I'm actually doing my TCPIP shortly whether Microsoft think it is required or not. It is pretty much the same argument as those newcomers who do not know DOS, BIOS settings and motherboard jumpers - sure you can do some fancy stuff, but you don't know the underlying stuff... <p>Zel<br><a href=mailto:zel@zelandakh.co.uk>zel@zelandakh.co.uk</a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[Karl Blessing]

well said Zel, Its like software-wise me going from c++ to vb(which I did) and I didnt feel confortable at first to know that VB was handeling all the underlying material for me, I had to know what it was doing, just saying &quot;well it works&quot; wasnt enough for me, so right now in programming I do C++, Vb, ASP, etc etc, but I also build my own computer, trobleshoot, review bunch of the new hardware, and have a side task of making sure all the computers work around my office, I've found that knowing the underlying stuff, you have alot more alternatives to pick from, also knowing most of the underlying issues will help get around some of the annoying problems windows and other microsoft software causes due to some misconfigured system, etc. Without this basic foundation of knowledge, I'd probally be a braindead Microsoft Hippie hehe, I would not have the job, I have now if I didnt know C++ to start with. My job didnt require C++, but they wanted me anyways because if it(I have written a few VC++ activeX for them, but my main job is VB and ASP/VBscript) In my opinion the more microsoft strips down on it's requirements, the more people they actually all to get certified, but at the same time, the more they decrease the value of that cert, as well as increase the dependence on the microsoft system. <p>Karl<br><a href=mailto:kb244@kb244.8m.com>kb244@kb244.8m.com</a><br><a href=

http://kb244.8m.com>

</a><br>Experienced in : C++(both VC++ and Borland),VB1(dos) thru VB6, Delphi 3 pro, HTML, Visual InterDev 6(ASP(WebProgramming/Vbscript)<br>

http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=629151

 

[NedLudd]

It's unfortunate because I think that Microsoft recognized that they had devalued the whole certification process when high school students and truckdrivers with no IT background could get certified after a one week &quot;boot camp&quot;, a lot of memorization and $15,000.&nbsp;&nbsp;I myself was in a class with a guy who had trouble typing his name and password on the prompt and yet scored 900/1000 on the NT test.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;Some of the more recent MS exams (like TCP/IP) used adaptive testing or accurate simulations (IIS) and that was a much better approach.&nbsp;&nbsp;I had hoped that the Win2K exams would follow along in this trend and test more realistically and bring value back to the certifications.&nbsp;&nbsp;Perhaps this isn't the case, and cynically, perhaps MS makes more money from the $100 per exam fee than from the &quot;quality&quot; of their certifications.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;For what it's worth, the Cisco exams test TCP/IP knowledge at a far greater depth than Microsoft, so identifies to me someone who REALLY understands the protocols.

 

[MasterRacker]

I don't know what the tests are like, yet but CompTIA does a vendor neutral Network+ certification along with Inet+.&nbsp;&nbsp;I would imaging they cover TCP/IP pretty well. <p> Jeff<br><a href=mailto: masterracker@hotmail.com> masterracker@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br> Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mind the most ...

 

[Pinkman]

Thanks for all the posts . . . I am glad to see that I am not the only one who thinks MS is not doing the right thing by retiring some of the exams affiliated with the MCSE 4.0<br><br>Alot of other really good points have been brought up - especially how the MS Cert is being degraded because of all the &quot;brain dumps&quot; and &quot;boot camps&quot; that allows a person with no computer experience to become certified in something that they can't do (except memorize).&nbsp;&nbsp;Don't get me wrong, there are some individuals that are 100% qualified and do the bootcamps because they lack the time to really study for weeks or even months - but of course there is always exceptions.<br><br>I guess it is alot like some college graduates.&nbsp;&nbsp;They go to school for 4 years, get a piece of paper, but don't really know the &quot;real world&quot; aspects of their field.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>I graduated with a B.S. in computer science and have yet to use any knowledge I gained from college (except some really cool keg tricks).&nbsp;&nbsp;I am now a network admin for a company that has 6 offices throughout the nation connected via central servers and WAN Links.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am the only IT/network person here.&nbsp;&nbsp;Nothing I learned in college could have prepared me for the &quot;real world.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Nothing goes according to theory!<br><br>This is similar to the MCSE program.&nbsp;&nbsp;Just because you got a piece of paper saying you can do something - does not mean they can do it in the real world.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think that when Businesses hire college grads and MSCE's with no experience they take a chance in hoping that they can learn the ropes and get some experience.<br><br>The MCSE program is not exactly easy, but in the end - if all you have done is memorized and just barely gotten by then it will come back to haunt you because you are going to lack the knowledge to fix or do something.<br><br>Pinkman

 

[Karl Blessing]

in my opinion those who take an IT job saying they know something then it hits them in the back of the head, deserves it. I wouldnt have to pay 15,000$ , they have books for these things for less than 100$, and to just take the exam, can be around 200$(with the books) etc, but guess it depends on whose taking it. <p>Karl<br><a href=mailto:kb244@kb244.8m.com>kb244@kb244.8m.com</a><br><a href=

http://kb244.8m.com>

</a><br>Experienced in : C++(both VC++ and Borland),VB1(dos) thru VB6, Delphi 3 pro, HTML, Visual InterDev 6(ASP(WebProgramming/Vbscript)<br>

http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=629151

 

[MichaelAdamsMCSE]

I agree with many of the sentiments here, and I have had some experience with some of the exact things you all have talked about. I have an MCSE (obviously, from my &quot;handle&quotand I do think the TCP/IP is one of the most valuable topics offered. MS has claimed that it is only doing away with that exam because TCP/IP will be integrated into all of the upcoming exams. I don't know what level of knowledge that approach will give, and I'm not defending it. That is just the story I was told.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I also believe with the above post about Cisco being a true mark of a knowledgable tekkie. Cisco MAKES you learn this stuff much more deeply than most other tests. I'm the sole Administrator at a local credit union, and the stuff I learned in Cisco class is the stuff I have meen using most often.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In defense of the exams (all/any of them), it is impossible to thoroughly test anyone's knowledge to such an extent that that person, upon passing the exam, will be guaranteed to be competent. All of us learn things every day. And there are situations at work that no test could possibly cover. I say that having a MCSE/Cisco/other cert gives you a MINIMUM acceptable level of knowledge. It just means you CAN learn this stuff, and you have the basic tools and the foundation on which to build more knowledge through experience.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think a cert just means you have the proper willingness to work in the field. <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

 

[Pinkman]

MichaelAdamsMCSE . . . <br><br>Good points!&nbsp;&nbsp;I must say that I agree with everything that you said.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Certs are just saying that you are willing to learn.&nbsp;&nbsp;Of course there are always exceptions, but for the most part I think it is true.<br><br>It does tell people/employers that you have taken the initial step towards the willingness to work in the IT field.<br><br>I now realize why experience is so valuable.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>One more question that has always bothered me.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why do some companies require that you have a cert or a degree to even be considered.&nbsp;&nbsp;While someone with 10 years experience (no education - college or cert) would be looked over in a heart beat.&nbsp;&nbsp;Even though they would clearly do the job better than the &quot;rookie.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;I ask this because I know someone in this position.&nbsp;&nbsp;They told him to get some kind of degree - then he would be considered.&nbsp;&nbsp;Even if the degree was in basetweaving!&nbsp;&nbsp;He had far more experience and education (by means of real world) than any applicant.<br><br>It bothers me that so much stress is put on these certs and degrees.&nbsp;&nbsp;I guess some sort of standard has to be inforced by an employer.&nbsp;&nbsp;But I think this could hurt them in the long run.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Pinkman<br><A HREF="mailtoinkman@texas.net">Pinkman@texas.net</A>

 

[MasterRacker]

Thre are a number of reasons&nbsp;&nbsp;and some companies require degrees and certs and some don't.&nbsp;&nbsp;For a job hunter it can be a good gauge of the corporate culture.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Many companies are rigidly bureaucratic.&nbsp;&nbsp;The HR Dept. drives the hiring process.&nbsp;&nbsp;An IT mgr puts in a personnell requisition along with a list of requirements and then doesn't even get to talk to any applicants until HR passes them on.&nbsp;&nbsp;You're immediately filtered out if you don't have the correct alphabet soup on the resume, then, if you pass that you're intervied by an HR person who has no clue what you will actually do in the job.&nbsp;&nbsp;If you somehow make it through this, you may get to talk to people in the IT dept.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Other companies are a little more open to realizing that experience can count for as much if not more than degrees and certs.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our company always uses the wording <i>or x years equivalent experience</i> after the degrees and certs section of a job posting.&nbsp;&nbsp;It doesn't mean we always hire the best people either but at least their willing to consider that someone may have learned something useful on the job over the years.<br><br>It's a tough thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;A company needs to try and judge applicants somehow.&nbsp;&nbsp;For example, a programmers with a master's may still write junk.&nbsp;&nbsp;A programmer with 10 years experience may never have had any formal education on data struictures, algorithmic theory, reusable code, documnentation, etc and also write junk.&nbsp;&nbsp;Companies have to try and find quality somehow.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>If you get in the door and talk with the people that actually work in the department you are applying for you've got a good chance.&nbsp;&nbsp;The companies that do this will continue to get good people whether or not the MS certs continue to de-value. <p> Jeff<br><a href=mailto: masterracker@hotmail.com> masterracker@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br> Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mind the most ...

 

[fenris]

I have to add something that I read about degrees and certs and why companies usually prefer these. A degree or cert generally indicates that the person can finish what they started, usually something that is time consuming. For most degrees it takes about four years to complete it. I am not sure how long it would take to complete a certificate but I imagine that it is at least a few months worth of studying. Personally I don't believe in reallying on degrees and certs as a testament to a person work capability. Every job that I have gotten was based on the interview. All my jobs were within the IT field. I have no formal education in the IT field, yet they all seemed impressed. I guess I was lucky, in that the person that did the interviewing was the manger of the IT department in all the cases. On one interview, the interviewer asked a series of &quot;simple&quot; questions in regards to networking. I answered all the questions to the best of my ability. Sufice it to say that I got the job. Later on my boss told me that I had beat out 60 other candidates, mostly college graduates from IT. He told me that I was the only person to correctly answer all of the questions. <br><br>That is the type of hiring policy that I would like to see implemented at major organizations. People from the department questioning and interviewing the potential candiates.<br><br>But that is my 2 cents....<br><br> <p>Troy<br><a href=mailto:fenris@hotmail.com>fenris@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[calahans]

Let us not forget that Microsoft is a company, and like any other company, their sole goal is to make profit. They don't care if you are a skilled IT worker and they are definitely peopled by philanthropists. The exams are just another way to make money, and to force people to take them if they want to work with Microsoft products.<br><br>I may sound like a cynic but I don't think I am, I just a realist. I can't stress enough that you should always take a college education over some bespoke exam system. Just ask Novell engineers!!!<br><br> <p>Cal<br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[MasterRacker]

I'd agree with Cal here.&nbsp;&nbsp;I've changed my own focus away from MS certs to more traditional ed. and vendor independent certs. <p> Jeff<br><a href=mailto: masterracker@hotmail.com> masterracker@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br> Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mind the most ...

 

[Karl Blessing]

I used to want to just get any cerfication to see if I had what it took, but after seeing the way most certifications work ( I got a few brainbench certs since they were free ) But now it's a big line between being Certified by a company, and actually knowing the material you wanted to learn. <p>Karl<br><a href=mailto:kb244@kb244.8m.com>kb244@kb244.8m.com</a><br><a href=

http://kb244.8m.com>

</a><br>Experienced in : C++(both VC++ and Borland),VB1(dos) thru VB6, Delphi 3 pro, HTML, Visual InterDev 6(ASP(WebProgramming/Vbscript)<br>

http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=629151

 

[fenris]

I have to agree with Karl and Jeff, After looking at some of the study material that is out there for certifications I wouldn't be impressed with a cert. To be honest with you I purchased the &quot;MCSE Windows NT 4 server traing guide&quot; simply for the reference material it had, not with the goal to take the tests or get certifications. I found the book loaded with information and step by step procedures on how to accomplish simple and complicated tasks in NT. But it basically tells you what will and won't be on the exam, I hate that because in real life you may never need an MS exchange server or something like that. Unfortunately, that type of testing is present in all aspects of a more formal education.<br><br>I would like to see a non-profit organization that is made up of IT people that would provide the tests and certs for free, provide you meet the requirements first. I would say a good requirement is to have a well polished resume outlining your experience in the IT field that would be relavent to the cert that you are applying to take.<br><br>The test material would come from the various companies, but the exam and the exam style would be goverened by this organization. As it stands now almost every cert that I can think of can be done via online testing. I think that the exams should be setup in such a way, that if you know what you are doing (ie a few years experience), then you should not have to study for them to pass and get your certification. <br><br>For example, if you want a TCP/IP cert, then there should be little mention of a particular operating system, unless it is absolutely neccessary. BrainBench is bad for that. If it turned out to be difficult to do this then split the cert up in to ones representative of a particular O/S, windows TCP/IP and Unix TCP/IP. This can be done for pretty much everything.<br><br>Then again, thats my opinion<br> <p>Troy Williams B.Eng.<br><a href=mailto:fenris@hotmail.com>fenris@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[elizabeth]

The people who visit this site are in one of the highest-paid professions in the world. Who should foot the bill for these cert organizations instead of the people who plan to benefit from the exams? Personally, I don't think it's wise or virtuous to spend my time volunteering to help people who basically don't need help, and also don't plan to do volunteer work in return. These certs are for helping people get themselves better jobs and better pay, not for teaching you how to help feed the hungry or heal the sick. <br><br>There is nothing wrong with someone making a profit to provide a valuable service or product. I don't understand why I hear so many people complain they don't get paid enough, but expect ther people to work for free or give things away.

 

[calahans]

Elizabeth, I think you are missing the point. People don't want an independent organisation so they can have a reduced rate, they want an impartial body to host and design the exams/curriculum. For example, Microsoft want you to use their product&nbsp;&nbsp;using their skill set, a impartial third party wouldn't care if its COBOL, VB, Java, FoxPro .... <p>Cal<br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[Zelandakh]

The initial premise of the thread seems to be that MS are forcing people to upgrade their skills to 2000 before they are ready and before most companies are willing to adopt the technology.<br><br>As an NT4 person (working on MCSE) I am stuck. I have to get my MCSE by the end of the year or else and I have to get my 2000 by Dec 2001. Once you get a load of people with the qualifications, they will be itching to implement the system (or so the story goes) and then MS sell more.<br><br>Of course it is about profit. Is Win2k going to provide where NT cannot? Possibly. Is it going to cure the sick or do voluntary work? Nope, but it'll make Bill Gates a very rich man. It is just going to take longer to get an installed base than the exam retirement dates are saying.<br><br>Does anyone actually work in a company that has rolled out 2k and is anyone MCSE2000 qualified? <p>Zel<br><a href=mailto:zel@zelandakh.co.uk>zel@zelandakh.co.uk</a><br><a href= > </a><br>