Win98 reformat problems 5

[Ngolem]

My son decided to get creative with his machine. He wanted to reformat his hard drive and reinstall Win98.

He made a Win98 boot disk from the add/remove software applet, using the startup tab so that he could use his CDROM.

However, the computer would not recognize the floppy in the A Drive and merrily went on to boot his computer in the normal manner.

He then decided to exit to MS DOS where he went to the A-Drive and typed in Format C:...the C: drive formatted fine apparently.

He then rebooted his machine, now the machine just hangs when it encounters the A Drive...it doesn't go any further. I think because it is looking for info on the A drive and cannot find any.

How can we get his computer to recognize that there is a boot disk in the floppy??

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[TekTippy4U]

Computer: Zoltec
CHIP: Intel Celeron with built-in Math Processor, 433 Mhz
AmiBios System 1985-1996 (c)
Amibios date: 07/15/95

Jim;
This is the info which led me to believe Drive Overlay...
A 433mHz processor means it's been upgraded, and I'm assuming a larger HDD..
What's the roundabout size anyway??

The BIOS'es of that era had limitations in accessing the larger HDD......some background info here

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;122052

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;186057

The info here is really only to help you understand/learn

I'm not great with Drive Overlay's , but I think you basically have 3 Options,
1. Figure out "which" Overlay software was used and use it again (I think it may be possible, but don't know how in you're situation)
2. Obtain any Drive Overlay software and try to start fresh, maybe it can read the Boot Sectors and alter it appropriately, and use it.
3. Visit the Manu. of the HDD and d/l a utility to LLF (low-level format)the disc..usually free.

Another problem is also that you may need Drive Overlay after you're done with LLF anyway, to recognize a larger disc, because of the BIOS/Mobo limitation..(which is why it was used in the first place)
Like i said, i'm not 100% on any of this...
Go into the BIOS and see if there's an option for LBA in the IDE area setup (it will be near any CHS parameters)

One more thing that's a long shot is the Swapping the CDROM thing, for a newer one, I mentioned earlier...the "one" thing about that is that the BIOS "has" to be ATAPI compliant, in order for you to boot from CD..(which i think it is from all info so far)

Also I remember that the drive was "never" fdisked, only formatted....right?
So if you are able to LLF the disk, you should probably then be able to run fdisk. (not 100% sure)

some suggestions;
Wait for others to post or start a new thread and end this one....(there are ppl here who know)
pointing a new thread back to here with a link is fine...
in the meantime;
visit the various Third-party Overlay Manu.'s such as Partition Magic, Ontrack, etc..use google
Wish i could help more....


TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[Ngolem]

Hmmm...I am a bit confused.

I was researching this a bit and found a fellow with a similar problem with a foppy .... it would not recognize the startup disk...so he swapped another floppy from another machine...same problem....replaced that floppy back into his other machine...NOW that floppy didn't work in his old machine.

Just how does this Overlay work??? Is it something installed onto the floppy disk drive itself or its card?

I also read something about replacing the IDE controller? Is that a good thing? WOuld that upgrade the BIOS.

It seems to me that the problem with this machine is that it was built when HD size was exploding (5 years ago) so software tricks were used to make some systems work....true?

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[edfair]

Drive overlay goes on the hard drive and buggers the boot sector and the FAT in such a way as to put more sectors with each cluster. Simple explanation, and the end of my direct knowledge of current versions.
To get access to the hard drive with a floppy required you to put the drive overlay stuff on the boot floppy also. Using a non-overlay floppy left the hard drive unaccessable.
It is a neverending job for the BIOS writers to stay current with the hard drive techniques and capabilities.
Docdebit's suggestion about copying across the the install stuff will work with OEM versions. Where he has only retail, I have only OEM and that is the way I go about it. Well not exactly, but close enough.
With a 95 boot disk and the hard drive on you machine you could delete all partitions then create one of 2.1 gb or less. Both machines should be able to handle that size. And you have to make it active. Then reboot with a 98 boot disk to copy the install stuff and follow that previous post.
And welcome to the world of hard drives. It does get interesting.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[TekTippy4U]

i wrote:

Also I remember that the drive was "never" fdisked, only formatted....right?
So if you are able to LLF the disk, you should probably then be able to run fdisk. (not 100% sure)

I meant USE fdisk to start fresh and create patitions, you'll need to do this after an LLF...either with fdisk or drive overlay


TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[Ngolem]

I assume yo mean doing this stuff on my Win95 machine since I cannot get his machine to recognize a floppy.

I am a little nervous about that

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[diogenes10]

Jim,
back to your son's machine for a few minutes

get a boot disk; dos, win95, or win98, doesnt matter which, that you have tested on your machine and know will boot it to a dos prompt.

sons machine,
be sure bios shows some boot order that has a first.
disconnect harddrive and cd drive so you basically have a computer that has video, whatever i/o (serial,parallel etc) ports, and a floppy drive. power it down, insert boot disk and power it up. What happens?

If nothing, would you be comfortable risking floppy drive from your machine-ie taking it out of yours and putting in sons machine and trying boot process again?

 

[Ngolem]

I might be except I saw a post in another forum (not tek-tips) where I guy tried this and when he put his good floppy back into his machine...it had the same problem as the bad machine....I went through a long period of getting my machine back up to snuff...don't want that problem again

Your idea of disconnecting the HD and CD-Rom has merit as a test

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[diogenes10]

hi jim
I remember how much trouble you were having with the other machine-I understand you not wanting to mess with it now.

Trying to test the floppy itself goes back to your original question. It was my thought that then knowing the answer to that we could go backward or forward a step at a time to try to troubleshoot things.

Other info that I think might be helpful
1) Can you see anything about some kind of program -- ontrack disk manager and ezbios are two that I think of-- in the initial screens as the computer starts up? I have a machine that i (unfortunately) got ezbios installed on -- on it the machine displays initial info about memory, drives, etc and then does the first windows picture screen and then drops briefly back into the black dos screen and at that point the message about ez bios comes up. As you watch those initial screens, is there any thing that comes along about some kind of program loading?

2) inside the computer
a) are the hard drive and cd drive on different cables, or the same cable?
b) make and model of the cd drive?
c) make and model of the harddrive?
(there should be labels on the top of the harddrive and somewhere on cd unit that will give you that info. )

the drive info will be more meaningful to others than to me but I think it might help as we talk with you about partition sizes and drive utilities on the harddrive and atapi compliant/drivers etc on cd.

Not sure if I can watch the thread this weekend, but there will be folks around-I know this is really frustrating- but it was working before-it's got to be possible to get it going again.

 

[diogenes10]

Hi Jim.
Just being nosey, did you ever get the machine fixed or is your son on time share with you?

 

[Ngolem]

No...I didn't. :-(

And yes...I am tired of this time-share arrangement with my son. haha

I went out and purchase a second hand Floppy drive today as a matter of fact. Installed it an hour ago. tried to boot the f**ken machine (excuse my French)and exactly the same response.

It searches the drive...I can hear it working on the disk...and it just hangs....exactly as it did with the other drive. We have a boot disk that he made from work....not on my Win95 machine....no difference.

Anyone I talk to about (except this forum of course) gives me a blank stare.

Very frustrating....I am ready to pitch the thing.

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[ImpetusEra]

I'm sure it's been covered already but has the cable orientation been verified? Also has a BIOS flash been attempted? You could partition and format the drive in another system then boot using the CD for setup.

 

[edfair]

Cable fully inserted in the board? You could try reseating it a couple of times to break thru any corrosion.
The cut and twist is to be on the floppy end of the cable and the drive on the the connector on the end past the cut and twist.
Drive setup correctly in CMOS? BIOS set up for seek on POST? Drive swap not activated.
Drive should seek twice, once during post, once during boot. Drive select light should light both times.
You could try a different length cable. A couple of times in my young life I've seen machines sensitive to cable length or noise pickup. And it is possible that the floppy controller can be bad.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Ngolem]

cabling is fine....there was never a problem as it turned out with the Floppy.....nothing was changed wrt hardware .... my son got some stupid instructions off the net to reformat his C drive, while he was in the C drive and then shut down and tried to reboot from a StartDisk he had prepared before doing this stupid stunt (at least this is what he claims he did)

the setup seems to be fine....give me what it should be...we have disabled the chip antivirus and only enabled the Floppy for the boot drive.

BIOS set up for seek on POST? Drive swap not activated.


The computer flashes the correct HD name on startup but everything set to zero's when the specs are shown.

after that it show exactly this

SDRAM @ DIMM # : 1,2

Searching for Boot Record from Floppy....OK

we hear the floppy working on the disk the light is on...then it hangs





not sure what you mean here???

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[Ngolem]

What I meant was with respect to "Drive Swap activated" We have the first Boot drive as the Floppy and it goes there to be hung up.

Not sure if I see a floppy powerup before this though.

ImpetusEra - Also has a BIOS flash been attempted?

no...don't know how to do this. You are dealing with a person with all the Hardware experience of a Crystal Report writer

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[TekTippy4U]

I'll offer my opinion one more time; as I posted above awhile back
You need a new CD drive.....
Go and get a new/used $25-$45 CD-RW
(try to keep the speed on the low end, ala 32x12x40, and pop it in...and it'll work.)
Worked for me when I did this awhile ago to a 1996 gigabyte mobo win95 PentiumPro166mHz w/32mb Ram....
Turns out it was an old Goldstar CDROM in there and only supported DOS drivers which i didn't have anymore once i wiped....
Popped in a Lite-on 32x12x40 CDRW and off it went like a charm

As I said too, As long as you have an ATAPI compliant BIOS and an OEM disc, no need for flop.

The worst thing that could happen is you'll return the CD Drive and get your money back....then again the best case is...well, ya know

Really just trying to help you, ngolem, I know your at wits end. Hang in there, it's happened to the best of us, of which I wouldn't even consider myself one..

TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[ImpetusEra]

I think it is a BIOS issue since nothing else has seemed to resolve it. The only other solution I can think of to bypass it is put the hard drive in another machine that boots to a prompt with the bootdisk then partition and format the drive, sys c it, then copy all the files on the disk with exception of command.com to the hard drive. Then you can boot to the hard drive with cd-rom support and run setup off the 98SE CD.

 

[Ngolem]

How does getting a new CDROM help a floppy drive problem???

The current (one year old cdrom) is a Sony CRX1611 R/RW...not exactly bottom of the line.

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[TekTippy4U]

Jim;
This is the first time you're mentioning that.....

you said (way up there on the 15th)Computer: Zoltec
CHIP: Intel Celeron with built-in Math Processor, 433 Mhz
AmiBios System 1985-1996 (c)
Amibios date: 07/15/95

We tried to use the CD-rom drive with the original Win98 system and we got an error saying that it wasn't a system disk...this is not a copied disk to our knowledge...it is right out the box from the OEM bundle of software

and afterwards
it is the Windows98 OEM CD.

Now, since your not using and OLD Cdrom, which is good...and you have an OEM CD.....and you set the BIOS to CDROM as first Boot Device....and the HD detection set to Auto....... AND IT STILL DON"T WORK......then either 1 of 3-4 things like i said also before;
-Drive Overlay
-Incorrect BIOS settings (Do you have LBA mode enabled?, and atleast FPM mode, Math Co-Processor enabled, INT13 Ext enabled)
-Your BIOS need a Flash Upgrade
-You've got a Boot Sector Virus

So, take your pick

Oh yeh make sure you DON'T have os/2 enabled in the BIOS....and if you don't have a CdROm choice in BIOS, but have A,C,SCSI instead, or C,A,LBA say so.....

You need the Mobo Numbers(make/model#) for the correct BIOS upgrade if one is even available

TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[Ngolem]

-Drive Overlay
-Incorrect BIOS settings (Do you have LBA mode enabled?, and atleast FPM mode, Math Co-Processor enabled, INT13 Ext enabled)
-Your BIOS need a Flash Upgrade
-You've got a Boot Sector Virus


I'd say there is no Drive Overlay but not sure...the HD is only 6 Gig. What if I disconnected the HD altogether as a test? Would that prove something?? It could not reference an Overlay that way.

I'd say the Bios settings are ok.

Don't know how to do a Flash Upgrade? How is that done? If it requires a floppy I'm hooped.

If I have a Boot sector virus...I don't think so...since I am referencing 2 floppies made on different machines. If it is on the HD then disconnecting the HD may help I suppose.

Jim Broadbent

The quality of the answer is directly proportional to the quality of the problem statement!

 

[TekTippy4U]

All the more reason I say Overlay....Most HD at the time of your BIOS date were only 1.2 - 2.0 GB. MS didn't even implement Fat32(up to 8GB, was only 512MB and Fat16) till 1996 with its Win95B OSR2 release, and didn't implement LBA with INT13h ext till Win95C OSR2.5 (1997)....(which went beyond the 8 GB limit)

In reference to my last post, beware( OSR2) OEM Service Release 2 is totally diff than os/2 in BIOS which is IBM's file sys. HPFS).

Jim;
After re-reading alot of the novel above, I'm convinced the only way out is to LLF(low-level format) the disk. I say this for a lot of reasons, but primarily that, way up there you mentioned this error message "Boot disc failure, insert System disc and hit enter". This is because the "signature value" the last two bytes in the MBR are corrupt. (55AAh)....OR if the HDD contains No Partitions... If the last two bytes are not 55AAh, an Interrupt18h is invoked- hence the error message...and this error sometimes directs you to Insert a bootable floppy. You should be able to boot from a floppy and utilize fdisk, etc...However that's another issue, cause suppose Drive Overlay was used, then that boot floppy wouldn't do any good anyway (It won't recognize it as a Bootable floppy...diff VBR (volume boot records). Again, cause the Master Partition table has been altered.(either thru corruption and/or Drive Overlay)..... Go the HDD manu. website and Download the LLF utility somehow,(it'll usually fit onto one floppy) and hook up that HDD to another machine and LLF it, and then pop it out, and put it back in the Orig....and boot up either way (Floppy or CDROM) and Partition the disc. Once that's done, you can also look for BIOS upgrades to D/l onto floppy (it'll be a good idea to flash the BIOS "before" making partitions, however I understand your floppy isn't working right. That's why I think it'll work correctly , once you LLF the HDD.

TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.