Win95 Install on Multi-Partitioned Drive Already Containing XP 2

[Jekteir]

Hi, sorry about the difficulty this problem may pose. I would greatly appreciate anyone's help with this issue.

I would like to install 95 on my PC. I am already running XP in a multi-partitioned drive, and XP's partition is full of files, so I definitely don't want to reformat.

The drive looks like this (according to Partition Magic):

Partition: Type: Size: Status: Pri/Log:

Local Disk (C NTFS 4,996.7MB Active Primary
(*) Extended 281,176.7MB None Primary
WIN95 (F FAT32 6,000.8MB None Logical
XP (G NTFS 275,175.8MB None Logical
(*) Unallocated 7.8MB None Primary


Now, it is the complexity of this setup, which the XP installation is responsible for (I said I wanted partitions at setup, but didn't realise how it would arrange them), which causes particular problems with installing 95, as I understand it. As you probably figured, I want to install 95 on the partition called WIN95 - F:. All my XP stuff is on XP (G. Windows Disk Management puts a bracket behind C: with (System) in it, and a bracket behind G: with (Boot) in it. However, my autoexec, boot.ini, ntdetect.com etc. files are in C:, and all of my windows files for XP are in G:. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way it is.

Another post I found pointed to

http://www.bcpl.net/~dbryan/ntfs-dual-boot.html

, and it does seem helpful. However, my level of knowledge is not great enough to be sure about some of the issues he discusses. I'm not sure what 'Drive 0' is (first he says it's "the NTFS boot partition", and then one of his later rules is "The DOS partition must be on Drive 0 at boot time"), or whether my 'extended partition'-seeming setup is a problem or not - and how to fix it if it is.

Is it plausible to install Windows 95 into F:, and have a dual-booting system? I want to be able to run DOS stuff with 95, of course. I managed to boot with a DOS6.22 disk and then run the Win 95 CD's setup.exe, and that offered me the message, "You will need to create an MS-DOS boot partition to set up windows". That's what started me on this path.

Any and all help with this would be gratefully received.

Jek

 

[wolluf]

Jek,

The short answer is you can't do what you want, without some changes (you have got a overcomplicated setup! Just an aside - when installing XP, best to create one partition & install XP there - leaving spare space for later - the partitioning tools with XP install will only create one primary partition, if you create more than one partition during install, it will create an extended partition & create logical drives within it).

You need a primary partition to install 95 into - for this setup (and you'll need a boot manager - I'm sure your research has told you 95 needs installing first for XP to create dual boot menu). And it needs to be near start of drive (you appear to have c. 300GB drive, I can't remember exactly where 95 needs to be to boot from, but certainly needs to be in first 32GB)

As you've partition magic, you could try manipulating the partitions (though that may cause its own problems). If PM will let you delete the 95 logical drive - leaving just the XP logical drive in the extended partition and replace it with a primary (FAT32) partition - which you can alos call F: - and should logically be in same place on drive - so XP boot should continue to work, then you're in business. Hide the ntfs primary partition (95 install often doesn't like it if it can see ntfs partition) using PM's tools and then install 95 on the new partition. Then unhide the ntfs partition, and install your boot manager (eg, I use

http://www.boot-us.com)

- and all may be well! (back up critical data before doing any of this - and create an XP boot floppy by copying ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini to a floppy from root of C:. This should boot your XP if it gets 'lost' in the process - you may need to edit boot.ini, as manipulating partitions can result in them being 'renumbered' - so currently you've probably got a partition(2) entry in there - may need to try different values (1, 3, 4 etc).

Alternatively, you could invest in MS Virtual PC or VMware and install 95 inside XP.

HTH.

 

[edfair]

It won't go into the f: as such. The XP governing it has marked it as a file system that 95 can't see.
You have partition magic, you have boot magic so the concept will work but you'll need to manipulate stuff.

Use your PM to get rid of the F:
resize the extended to free up space at the front
convert the newly freed up space to primary
move the xp up and free up space at the front.
put the 95 at the front
put the boot manager on and make the XP active
do a repair XP install
make the boot magic active with the EBD

And with all the manipulation your stuff is at risk. I would do the steps one at a time rather than combining them.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Jekteir]

Thanks a lot for the suggestions - they have been very educational. I have been reading up more on partitions, and would like to run this plan by you:

As I understand it, I can use PartitionMagic to convert from NTFS to FAT32 without loss of data. So, I could convert my C: partition [with the booting data - ntldr etc. - in it] to FAT32 and XP would still boot, I believe. How about this:

1: Convert C: from NTFS to FAT32.
2: Resize C: down from 4,996MB to, perhaps, 100MB.
3: Reboot and check it still works!
4: Delete the logical F: partition (WIN95) from inside the extended partition.
5: Somehow resize the extended partition so it only covers G: (the XP partition).
6: Take that now-unallocated space where F: was and turn it into a Primary FAT32 partition, resizing it towards C: to take up the space left over from the down-sized C: partition.

Snapshot now:

Partition: Type: Size: Status: Pri/Log:

Local Disk (C FAT32 100MB Active Primary
WIN95 (F FAT32 10,896.8MB Active Primary
XP (G NTFS 275,175.8MB None Logical
(*) Unallocated 7.8MB None Primary


Once I had done that, I could 'hide' the xp partition (I don't know what 'hiding' actually does, physically, or how it endangers my boot), boot to a DOS floppy, setup Win95 in F: (which I believe would not risk overwriting any XP system files?). Once 95 was running, I could reboot.

Could I boot to that command-line set of files from the boot-us.com disk? bootusc215e.zip: "Command-line program Boot-US for DOS and WIN32". If I could put that on a floppy and boot into that program [I don't really know how that program works: do you need to install it from Windows, or from boot-up, in order to have booting control?], then from there perhaps I'd unhide the XP partition, or not, depending on whether I could, or needed to, and then set up dual-booting from the FAT32 boot partition.

I believe, if I could run 95 and the C: partition was FAT32, I could also forego the boot-manager and manually add another boot option to boot.ini, referencing either XP or Win 95 or whatever it is that wasn't there.

Then I'd boot to XP (by hook or by crook), and perhaps unhide the XP partition if appropriate.

Does that sound sane or insane? I read (at

http://fdisk.radified.com/fdisk_partition.htm

) that you cannot have more than 2 partitions per HD - one primary, one extended. I'm not sure I buy that, but if it's so, it creates problems for my snapshot. I also don't know the significance of the 'Active' labels in that snapshot I put up there, so I just went with the flow. Maybe they should all be primary, active partitions in that diagram?

Ed, the one thing I didn't understand in your suggestion was the line: "move the xp up and free up space at the front." Could you possibly use the partition names etc. so I can better understand you?

Also, are there big risks to my data in doing this? I hear that PartitionMagic rarely causes problems. The thing is, I only have one 300GB drive - so nowhere really to back up my data, which currently takes up about 70% of the 275GB XP partition. Maybe I should buy another hard drive first

Thank you both again for your very timely, well-written and helpful advice.

Jek

 

[edfair]

First, rarely doesn't mean never. PM is an "Alice in Wonderland" program. When it screws up you can lose everything.

My suggestion was to remove the f: from the extended, resize the extended to exclude the unused space freed up, then resize the primary to include that space then create free in front of the c:. Basically a lateral shift.

You can have up to 4 partitions, but limited to 1 extended.
Any one of the 4 primary (if 4,0) can be the boot if it is active and contains an OS.

If you use the boot.ini as the choice spot for dualboot it indicates you have both on one partition. That isn't what you have asked for.

Where is XP? Normally would be on the C:. If so you can't shrink to 100mb, Last time I checked XP took a bit over 1gb for minimal install.

What version of 95? May need FAT16 if earlier version, and your sizing may need to change.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Jekteir]

Ed, thanks for the comments.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately in this case?) this isn't a "normal" install: although C: currently has about 5 gigs, the only things on it are:

boot.ini, ntldr, autoexec.bat, config.sys, an empty "hplog.txt", io.sys, msdos.sys, ntdetect.com, "System Volume Information" folder (empty, access denied), RECYCLER folder (empty), and a folder UBD1 with some bootdisk files in it (I don't think I created it, don't know where it came from).

All in all the current used space in C: is 30 megs.

My XP installation is in G:. That's the really big logical partition within the extended partition. Check up at the top for my original diagram of the partitions. It seems that the stuff in C: is providing information about the location of the XP system to boot; hence this is the text from boot.ini:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(3)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(3)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn

As you can see, it's loading the XP from the third partition (even though that partition's within the extended one) - G:.

I'm pretty sure it's a FAT32 version of Win95, but not sure how to check.

So if I isolate F: from the extended partition, then:

a): What happens to the extended partition? Does it stay 'extended' but with only one logical drive in it, or does it just become another primary drive/logical drive?

b): Does resizing the extended down to the edges of the current logical drive G: mean that G's contents won't actually be altered (and therefore not risked to any great extent)?

c): Do I need to put "F:" in front of the current "C:", as it were? C: only currently holds booting stuff, no operating systems. My hope was to isolate F: from the extended partition, and leave C: and F: as they were, but put Win95 in F: and some booting info in C: for it.

Another important question from earlier was whether it's worth trying to convert C: (i.e. that limited booting info) from NTFS to FAT32 so that the Win95 CD will be happy playing with it before installing onto F:.

Thanks again for your response.

Jek

 

[Jekteir]

P.S. The helpfile "Microsoft Windows 95 Resource Kit" on my 95 CD says, "Windows 95 features a layered file system architecture that supports multiple file systems, including VFAT and CDFS." I gather VFAT = FAT32?

Jek

 

[wolluf]

Jekteir - bit overwhelmed with all this detail! Where to start?

1. Conversion of 1st partition

I was also going to suggest converting the first partition to FAT32 (but thought I'd written enough!) as an alternative. Without resizing it, you could then install 95 either directly into it or into the existing logical drive (with a fat32 primary partition, you can do this). The drawbacks:-

- need to regenerate XP's boot sector - which 95 install will overwrite. You could do this by running a repair reinstall of XP - which should also create a dual boot (but again with your complications, might not!) -

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;315341

You could alternatively use parts of this

http://www.dougknox.com/xp/tips/xp_repair_9x.htm

to create the dual boot yourself. The xp boot floppy I mentioned earlier comes in handy when you're playing with boot sectors.
- the 2 operating systems would not be independent (ie, they will be sharing a boot sector). This is a drawback to me - but may not be for you.

2. Version of win95.

I'm not convinced VFAT is FAT32 - think its just an extension to FAT generally for long filenames. But, if the install files on your 95 CD are from August 1996 or later and its got a key in the format xxxxx-xxxxxxx-xxxxx, its at least OSR2 and will support fat32.

I'd just echo what Ed says about PM - it can all go horribly wrong (even though it doesn't most of the time) - so unless you've got everything backed up, its a definite risk using it to rejig your setup (in terms of moving stuff around - should be ok just converting partition from one filestore type to another - but do create that boot floppy first if you do go this route!)

 

[edfair]

Just an added comment: The repair install won't try a dual boot install if the w95 partition is hidden.
Can't remember where 95 went to FAT32 but I've always put it on FAT16 anyway to get access via earlier DOS. But even if it supports 32 there is a problem with the later media byte assignment that keeps the 32 version for 95 from seeing a 32 version created by 98. Don't know if it was carried forward into later releases or not. And it might have been some other glitch during an install that bit me. Just wasn't worth the trouble at that time to trace it.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Jekteir]

OK, thanks, guys. Lots of good ideas there. I think I might try that conversion and installing 95 on C:. Somehow it never even occurred to me to put it directly on C: in FAT32. I guess we'll know if it works or not soon enough. I'm going to plug in a floppy drive and test an "XP boot disk" from my boot.ini etc. first.

Jek

 

[Jekteir]

Hey, thought I'd let you know I couldn't get my system to boot from a floppy with the ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini in it - this is before changing any partitions. Got some sort of "non-system disk" error. Anyway, I think I can save it with the XP disc if I have to, and I also have some old XP floppy boot disks lying around somewhere that might be useful.

I discovered from the version number of setup.exe on my win 95 that it is the revision #1, so I think I might try installing win 98 instead. I wanted 95 because I think it's cleaner and faster, but 98 should still be able to run all the DOS stuff. So, for now I'm going to try formatting C: to FAT32 with PM and see if I can still boot, or if I need to rescue it with the XP CD.

Jek

 

[edfair]

First edition or second edition? SE would be better.
If first revision of setup then probably 95+SP1 and about 65mb versus 98SE of 110mb.
And if it is 95+SP1 you will need FAT16.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Jekteir]

Hey again,

PM had no trouble converting C: to FAT32 (it took about 5 seconds!), and XP booted smoothly after that - all well so far. It is Win 98 SE; I guess I will try installing that next.

Thanks,

Jek

 

[wolluf]

Jekteir - the boot floppy - did you format it in XP? (should be a newly formatted - in XP - floppy you copy to for best results - sorry, should have mentioned) - and in the drive its going to be used in if possible. The non system disk error says its not been recognised as a boot disk by the bios - which could happen if its not a win NT/2k/XP formatted floppy.

I was also a bit surprised by your boot.ini - its got your XP in partition(3) - which is actually the 4th partition on the disk - which doesn't agree with your list - C: (partition 0) - boot, F: (partition 1) - 95 to be, G: (partition 2) - XP - but I do know that manipulating partitions with PM can change these numbers illogically (so just have to go with what is!)

Good luck with this.

 

[Jekteir]

Hi again, I made my attempt and have caused a new problem...

I got the XP 'boot floppy' working. Then I used PartitionMagic to hide my F and G partitions (it wouldn't let me hide the 'extended' partition as a whole) and booted to DOS. But my 98 CD gave me the same message as my 95 CD about not being able to create a temporary directory, telling me to check my file system etc.

So, I decided to go back to XP and post here again.

However, when I had hid the partitions, PartitionMagic had had to reboot to complete the operation. It rebooted, and at the end of hiding G: (at 99% on one label, 100% on another), came up with "Error 4" a few times. Then it rebooted.

When XP loaded again, it got into the blue screen where it usually loads the logon box and came up with the messages: "xmnt2002 program not found - skipping AUTOCHECK" and below it, "autochk program not found - skipping AUTOCHECK". From reading on the 'net, I gather these may have to do with PM. In any case, 2 seconds later it boots again - I cannot get into XP. Since 98 also doesn't install, etc., I'm locked out of that computer right now. I didn't make any "rescue disks" for PartitionMagic and wouldn't know how to use them if I had.

I am currently running XP's CD's repair function, and can explore some of G: that way. Should I use 'fixmbr' to deal with this? Or is there another way I can sort it? I assume it either has to do with the hidden partition or something to do with PartitionMagic. There's a thread here:

http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=439106

that I didn't find very helpful. Can I edit the registry from the recovery function, and if so, should I?

I hate it when an "issue with the process" suddenly turns into "a total halt to everything".

Thanks,

Jek

P.S. wolluf, with regard to your surprise over boot.ini, perhaps it is #3 because it is a partition within an extended partition?

 

[edfair]

F: and G: are not partitions, they are logical drives in an extended partition.

Using the fixmbr shouldn't hurt. It will overwrite the mbr that PM put in place.


the next attempt at SE should be done with the c: hidden. That is the boot initiator for your XP and is getting in the way of creating a c: that SE can use. You can use the PM EBD to do it, but I prefer to let SE take care of the creation.

Create the EBDs for PM and BM. They are graphical based and fairly straightforward in use. The PM allows you to manipulate partitions, the BM basically lets you set the boot partition and activate BM.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Jekteir]

Hi again,

Thanks for the advice. Although I'd moved my floppy drive onto this machine, I managed to burn the basic DOS stuff for PartitionMagic from the other machine onto a CD and load it on this one after booting to DOS. I got around the autochk error by:

a): Load pqmagic.exe from the CD.
b): 'Unhide' the partitions/drives.
c): Apply.
d): [It applies, says it's done.]
e): Exit.
f): Remove DOS boot disk.
g): Hard reboot.
h): When it loads the XP startup screen, it says something like 'PartitionMagic is completing its task, press any key to abort' or something like that.
i): PRESS ANY KEY!
j): The PartitionMagic process aborts and XP finishes loading. If you had let the process continue, it would hit the same error as before, die, and next time you load the DOS PM utilities, the XP drive is hidden again.

So, now that I'm in XP again maybe (if I have the balls) I will try your new idea. I checked and found the xmnt2002 and autochk files in system32, so I don't know what PartitionMagic's problem was...

I'm not entirely clear (well, really clear at all) on what BootMagic does, or how I should use it. Are you suggesting I remove F and resize the extended partition, make F FAT32, hide C: and install win 98 on F?

I have been thinking about resizing C down as I suggested before, making the rest of 'C' into a new drive, this time FAT, removing F from the extended partition (so that the new bit of C becomes F, and then installing 95 onto a less-than-2GB F:.

So I'd just hide C: and let everything else be? How does BM come into this?

Thanks,

Jek

 

[Jekteir]

To let you know, I have managed to 'merge' my F: drive out of the extended partition and into part of C: in one fell swoop.

My new configuration so far:

C: FAT32 10,997MB Active Primary
(*) Extended 275,175MB None Primary
G: NTFS 275,175MB None Logical
(*) Unalloc 7MB None Primary

So, now, perhaps I can cut out a 1.9GB partition at the end of C? Make it FAT...Then hide C: and run the win95 setup.

Is there any way of getting G: out of this annoying 'extended' bracket? Or is it not worth worrying about?

Thanks,

Jek

 

[wolluf]

PM should now be able to convert G: from logical drive to primary partition (as its the only logical drive in the extended partition).

You seem to be back on 95 - thought 98SE was where you were going? You can certainly do as you suggest (and hiding partitions is much simpler than logical drives) - and because C: will be hidden, 95 will put its boot sector on the (new) second partition & not overwrite XP's on C: (and you'll need a boot manager to provide you with a dual boot menu once you unhide C: again).

 

[edfair]

You probably want to leave the extended. that would be where you would exchange files.
Bootmagic is the program that shows the possible choices and allows the boot into one of those choices.
The bootmagic EBD allows you to set up bootmagic again after loading the second OS wipes out the choice as it rewrites the MBR.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.