Why swtich to IP sets??

[mikeydidit]

Well you knew this was coming. All the hype about the wonderful world of IP sets. I know the answers to the obvious (great IP trunking, call centers, remote office workers) but why should i use these to replace my 6400 series phones?

What features and functions would I gain that would be worth getting rid of my old reliable digit sets? Mobility??

I would really like to hear what all of you think.

Thanks for the replies, Mike.

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[Mitch672]

The main reason nowadays is cost:

If you are moving into a new building/greenspace, you don't have to run multiple cables, it can all run on 1 single ethernet cable. saves money on wiring costs, the downstream ethernet port is now a switched port on the 9600 series IP phones, and can be a totally separate PC/data LAN/VLAN, not affecting the phone traffic at all if you wish.

for many clients, who work at home, and who have site-to-site VPN tunnels setup, the IP phone works in the remote office, without a lot of extra equipment needed.

There are new applications, that only run on the IP phones, such as the broswer LDAP directory lookup that integrates to Microsoft exchange, allowing you to lookup people in your company (applies to large companies mostly)

Cool new customizable screensaver. on the 9600 R2.0 firmware, I can take a JPEG image, and have it float around as a custome scrreensaver, makes clients happy.

Lower cost: the older digital sets, such as the 6400 series have reached EOL, and are now costing over $100 more each new, if you can even find them. Also, since we are now moving to smaller and smaller gateways, such as the G450, we need far fewer line cards (fewer MM717's/TN2224CP's on the older switches), lowering cost. Yes, you do need a POE ethernet switch, so this may be a wash, but maybe not.

It's what clients and customers want, and although this is not a reason in itself, we do believe in giving the clients what they want.

customizable web applications, although not much has been done with this, some have been written, and there are some for checking stock prices, news, etc. you can't do this with digital phones.

mitch


AVAYA Certified Specialist

 

[caiguier]

From a management standpoint they are much easier to move (both good and bad). As long as you have standard jacks hot throughout your building/campus, people can just pick up their phones from an old desk location and plug them in at their new desk location.

 

[98Converter]

Because it's the "Wave of The Future".

To caiguier's point though, you can actually move your digital phones with the serialized 64xx phones too withouth having to TTI or PSA in/out. But to the management point, this now paves the way to streamline your support model. In managements eye - this is now an appliance, and the Network Eng. should be able to support this. So reduction in staffing levels perhaps?

IMHO I am in the middle of world upgrade, and looking back it would have been much easier to keep the digital sets, and the cost would have been considerably less. No IP sets, and no PoE switches. Yes there is a cost for the Media Modules, but it's short compared to phones & PoE...

Thanks,
CJH

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. ARISTOTLE 384-322 B.C.

 

[mikeydidit]

OK, i am liking the responses so far, but I am still not sold. I just bought 5ea. 4625SW sets for around $400.00 each. Thats no savings when I am buying 6408 sets for around $150.00.

The browser you can look at on your PC (thats sharing the same connection and sits right next to your phone) so thats not what I would call handy. Why look at a 5" screen when the 19" monitor is in front of you.

Because it's the "Wave of The Future".

This is more what I think it boils down to, but I am not sold that it's better.

In case you are wondering what really started this thread.

Our networking group is playing a round with a few of the Cisco wireless phones here. I have a feeling they are going to try to get into the telephone business. These would be a nice little unit for a couple of our areas but I have seen the snowball effect before. They have already questioned me about setting up SIP trunks between our system and Cisco communications manager. So i think it will be a matter of time before the clash..

Doing this for a long time now, i have learned that "Later greater" is not always "Better".

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[SF0751]

We use both digital and IP sets in my organization.

With digital sets, your phone is rock-solid unless your pbx fails. When was the last time that happened?

With IP sets, your phone is rock-solid unless your network fails, your router/switch fails, you lose power in the IDF closet, someone accidently unplugs your phone's network connection, or you have a broadcast storm. Not to mention having to keep track of all of those additional IP addresses.

Can you tell which one I prefer?

Susan
"When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers." - Oscar Wilde, An Ideal husband, 1893

 

[gblucas]

I use them both in my organization and their are both good and bad.

I love the IP phones, and I use one on my desk everyday. I have only deployed 4621 phones, and I get them for just over $200 each. I do not pay that much less for my digital sets, so to me, cost is a wash. The IP phones are great to deploy in a new environment, and for At-Home Agents, and employees who have more than one office. I have a remote office, where one of the VP's resides, but they keep him and office at corporate as well. We have IP phones in both places, so when he is in either office, he just uses the same extension. The bad part is, that in one remote office, we are having audio quality issues, to a point that the company is discussing adding a new phone system at the location, and giving them their own trunking. The problem we believe is in the MPLS cloud, and are still working to resolve the problems (now going on 2 months). I am sure I can think of more issues, but I would need more time.

Digital sets are ROCK SOLID, although I am now replacing about 1 phone a month, but most of my 6416 phones are going on 10 years old. I really can't complain. I don't know why someone would upgrade their system and throw out perfectly good phones, to replace them IP. If they were 4 wire digital, or Hybrid phones, I could make a compelling argument to move to 2 wire digital, to save on real estate in the media gateways, but going directly to IP, "just because", no I am still very traditional.

I think that there is a place for both in an organization, and they can play well together. As far as Cisco and Avaya in the same location, your network engineers are asking for trouble, and I would tread lightly going Cisco wireless. There are Avaya products that are available, that will allow you to do wireless stuff and not have to tread on the Cisco bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, I love Cisco products, but I have been burned by Call Manager, and would not want to go down that road again.

gblucas

 

[TDMorIP]

it took me a long time to finally say that i like IP phones better than tdm sets. more flexibilty and the ability to modify settings globally or within differnt groups by using the 46xx setttings file. screensavers, voice dialing, auto back up and restore for settings and so on. if cost is your concern give the 1600 series phones a try. i didnt like them at first, but after seeing the bugs worked out in the latest 1.0.3 firmware they work great. i think list price is a little over $200 for the 1608. thats a steal in my book. if its a new system, the ip solution will price better than TDM (including buying new PoE switches from Extreme) 9 times out 10. of course not factoring in any needed cabling. .......but i sure do miss the days of not having to troubleshoot both the PBX, and the customers network. Avaya is pushing for IP, so Im sure we will continue to see features and capabilies that are only supported with IP sets.

 

[nohuhu]

mikey,

i always say to my customer: if you have to justify cost for something, then you don't need that something. ip phone have its advantages and disadvantages compared to digital phone but i have yet to see a really reasonable justification for replacing perfectly working digital phones with ip ones just for the sake of it. and why replacing? just add ip phones whenever you need it, on new sites and so on, and leave old digital ones in peace. after all, you've already PAID for them, don't you want that investment to work for you? why even thinking about paying again for the equipment that will give you the same features? i admit screen savers are cool but does it make real difference? it's like cisco is saying all the time: our phones are way better 'cause they can play music file instead of ringing. i say wow, that's definitely the most important feature, everybody needs that. how could we live without it before?
all in all, i'm for the convergence. unlike cisco, avaya does allow that.

 

[num025]

Nice points guys, a very informative and interesting read for me.

 

[num025]

I forgot to mention, as dwalin said I prefer to just leave the digital phones where they are and just add IP phones for new offices.

 

[mikeydidit]

Thanks everyone for posting your views on the IP sets. It pretty much ended up where i thought it would. Its being pushed as the wave of the future, so that's the direction we are headed.

I think the comment our of all that was posted that most struck me was

Avaya is pushing for IP, so Im sure we will continue to see features and capabilities that are only supported with IP sets.

This I can see happening. I think these sets have their place, but I am not sure it's in my place. Call centers could benefit from their features, and IP trunking is really good if you are dialing across the country or world all of the time between branches.

But in my case we are a hospital and I need something that works, bottom line. As I mentioned earlier in this thread our network group is thinking of deploying the Cisco wireless handsets for mobility purposes and it will probably be nice to have in certain areas. As long as when they have problems with them they can go to their 6408 and call them to fix it, we will be OK.

Thanks again everyone.



"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[nohuhu]

mikey,

DON'T go with cisco wireless phones. take a look at avaya's IP DECT instead, it combines the best of two worlds: rock stable radio frequency part based on tdm and ip connectivity between pbx and base stations. works like a charm, doesn't give us any headache at all, managed within the same pbx AND it's a lot cheaper than wi-fi solution.

 

[mikeydidit]

dwalin Can you send me a link to these sets?? I am not sure I have heard of them and now you have my curiosity up.

Thanks Brother.

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[nohuhu]

mikey,

An overview you can find here
In short, DECT is european standard for micro-cell technology, TDM based. Avaya used to sell the old DECT solution here, wired as hell, crappy and poorly managed but stable but now they switched to IP DECT solution they outsource from a german company named DeTeWe. The whole system consists of some piece of software on CM side (enabled by a special license), a DECT controller software, some RFPs (radio fixed parts) -- we call 'em base stations, and DECT handsets. Between RFPs and handsets, the radio frequency based TDM technology is used, and between PBX and RFPs there's IP link so you can see it's a mix of the best of two worlds. Since DECT is a standard, there's a bottom line to it called GAP, Generic Access Profile. It means you're not forced to use Avaya handsets, use any GAP compatible and mostly they work fine, we have good results with Siemens Gigaset handsets for example. Of course, you can't access some system features like PBX address book and message waiting light on non-Avaya handsets but that's not a problem for most of the people, they just want to be able to call someone and receive calls. If they want advanced features, buy 'em Avaya phones (which are also DeTeWe relabeled). It's licensed in three parts: you need that special green feature license to enable IP DECT piece in CM, RFPs are licensed by their number from 1 station to 5 and if you have more it's flat rate, pay once and forget about it, just add more RFPs when needed and that's all. Also you'll need X-Mobility license per each IP DECT user but it's $0. Of course, besides X-Mobility license you'll need an ordinary user license for each IP DECT phone.
As for the price (GPL):
Special application (only once per system) -- $700
RFPs more than 5 -- $2528
RFP hardware itself -- $963 indoor model, $1204 outdoor model
3701 handset (simple) -- $169
3711 handset (advanced) -- $253

Each RFP gives roughly 150 feet of coverage around it and supports 8 channels for simultaneous conversations, allocated when needed. There's one design consideration with IP DECT: since its radio part is TDM based it should be all sync'ed up and you can't get the real time sync signal over IP. To overcome that, you assign one base station as reference clock and all other base stations in the vicinity get their sync from it. That means all base stations should have interconnecting coverage to be able to see each other and sync to each other. A group of synced RFPs is called a domain. Within a domain, there is handover feature available, i.e. a handset can move from RFP to RFP seamlessly without losing signal. You can have several domains, between domains there is no handover but there is roaming, i.e. a handset will need to re-register within network, it takes several seconds and present call is dropped. Registration in another domain of the same network is automatic, the user doesn't have to do anything but it takes some time. After that the handset becomes operational again. So you see, this system allows creation of large distributed wireless networks with topology almost independent of the parent CM system.
However, the greatest advantage of that system is that it's rock stable. Believe me, for the past year we have deployed several such systems and we had NO tickets regarding them, none at all. It's fire-and-forget kind of a system, DECT technology itself is fairly old and mature. I wouldn't recommend anything i'm not sure of to you, brother.

 

[98Converter]

Would there be any RF worries with regards to sensitive hospital equipment to consider?

Just a thought...

Thanks,
CJH

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. ARISTOTLE 384-322 B.C.

 

[mikeydidit]

I haven't replied yet as dwalin has given me several days worth of reading to do.

It looks like these operate in the 1.9 range, so I don't think that would be a problem. I have some of the 900MHZ Plantronics CT 10 wireless headsets out without any problems with other devices. I am pretty sure the Cisco WAP's work in the 4 Gig range and we will also be getting some in the 5 GIG range before long.

The main hospital band I have to watch out for is the 6.08 to 6.14 WMTS band for wireless telemetry devices.

Still reading dwalin... But I like it so far. I may see if my BP will do a test run on it here for me. If so I will let you guys know how it comes out.


I like new toys..


"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[vaoldschl]

mikey,

I just left a hospital in the same boat as yours: using old school Spectralink 900MHz and looking to leverage a new wireless infrastructure. Not to add to your reading list but I was looking at Cisco (which has gotten better and is marketing hard core to health care), Avaya's IP DECT, and Ascom. Look at the Ascom product. They have an already built HL7 interface that would have provided seamless integration to my hospital's back end system and integration with HilRom nurse call. When I had it quoted out the Ascom solution was only slightly more expensive than Avaya's and cheaper than Cisco's. Also, make sure your data folks aren't selling you a bill of goods on wireless infrastructure: a wireless network built for data is not necessarily adequate coverage for voice and, as I'm sure you know, the first time a doctor or nurse gets a phone that doesn't work is the last time they will use it.