Why Oracle? 15

[Mongr1l]

Hello. I'm an MS SQL 2000 developer who was recently asked the merits of switching to Oracle.

Apparently, my boss got a bug in his ear about the beauty that is Oracle.

Not being an Oracle developer, my concern is understandable. Basically, what my boss is really asking me is if I wouldn't mind learning an entirely different platform. I guess the alternative would be to hire an Oracle developer....

So... my question is this: Why all the fuss? I mean, what can Oracle do that can't be done in MS SQL 2000 or MS SQL 2005?

Keep in mind that MS SQL 2005 now comes with a great ETL package that include BI studio. I mean, honestly, what can possibly compare to that?

- mongril

 

[Gooser]

Just don't contract the CBA out, unless you wish to miss your deadline and pay too much.

v/r

Gooser

 

[123FakeSt]

Honestly depending on the size of your operation, I think there's more of a trend to switch to MySQL (now that they have Stored Procedures). I mean ... for $0 and with much of the functionality of SQL Server.

Of course companies feel as though 'nothing comes for free' so they are hesitant to go in that direction. I plan on spending much more time answering the question 'Why MySQL?' rather than 'Why Oracle?' though I've been 90% SQL server so far.

I'll gladly take half of the licensing difference between Oracle and MySQL as a bonus.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

 

[SQLDenis]

SQL Server is not just T-SQL + Stored Procedures
I couldn't switch to MySQL even if I wanted it
Who is going to rebuild and incrementally update my multi-dimensional OLAP (HOLAP) cubes?
What about MDX not supported
What about DTS?
Can MySQL Import FoxPro data with 1 line of code (OPENROWSET) Or Excel Or AS400 or anything else
What about scheduled jobs?
I can go on of course but SQL Server is a whole toolset and all the additional stuff is free
Analysis services/notification services/reporting services
all these things come with a hefty price tag with Oracle
There is a reason why analysis services is the number 1 OLAP platform
Do a search on Dice/monster almost all data warehouse jobs have MDX/Pivot in Excel and or analysis services requirements

Denis The SQL Menace
SQL blog:

http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/

Personal Blog:

http://otherthingsnow.blogspot.com/

 

[Mongr1l]

Funny you should mention OLAP, Dennis. I've recently discovered it within that last year and have been kicking myself for not having learned it sooner.

I can't remember when I've been so excited about data management.

Truly the most incredible tool I've come across.

I'm currently finishing the "MS SQL SERVER 2000 Analysis Services" book. I'm on the Storage Optimization chapter.

I would strongly suggest you get into it if you haven't already.

- mongril

 

[Mongr1l]

Er... when I say "you", I don't mean you, Dennis... obviously, you already know about it.

- mongril

 

[123FakeSt]

SQL Server is not just T-SQL + Stored Procedures

Being in a SQL Server programming forum I think we all realize that.

I couldn't switch to MySQL even if I wanted it
Who is going to rebuild and incrementally update my multi-dimensional OLAP (HOLAP) cubes?
What about MDX not supported
What about DTS?

No, in my current job there's no way I would want to code all of my DTS packages, migrate the OLAP to third party vendors (just Cognos alone would outprice SQL Server I believe), etc. It's all possible for a price of course.

There is a reason why analysis services is the number 1 OLAP platform

Shipping free with SQL Server 2000 (didn't MS get sued in Europe for this practice of bundling to eliminate the competion?} sure helps. How many people are using it off of their non-MS databases compared with Cognos, Hyperion, etc.?

Can MySQL Import FoxPro data with 1 line of code (OPENROWSET)

I am really sorry that you have to do this.

I didn't mean to offend you so much by bringing up MySQL but I just started using it for a couple of cross platform projects. We all know SQL Server has way more to offer, but when it comes to smaller shops Mysql is a viable option and for me to not to be able to include that in a cost/benefit analysis to my clients just because I am a SQL server developer would be unfair. There are many people using SQL server wihtout requirements for anything more than tables and stored procedures (including backup, security, and you basic admin stuff).

I couldn't recommend Oracle over SQL Server to anyone, but I've never compared them from the point of view of a very large business (which they seem to attract).

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

 

[123FakeSt]

Funny you should mention OLAP, Dennis. I've recently discovered it within that last year and have been kicking myself for not having learned it sooner.

I can't remember when I've been so excited about data management.

I just bought 20 Proclarity licenses (I evaluated 12 different Analysis Services clients) for end users. They are loving it! No more waiting for 2 weeks for a report analyst.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

 

[SQLDenis]

>>I just bought 20 Proclarity licenses

You know MS bought Proclarity in April right?
Will probably be free in the next version ;-(

Denis The SQL Menace
SQL blog:

http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/

Personal Blog:

http://otherthingsnow.blogspot.com/

 

[Mongr1l]

Here's the only response I received in the ORacle Forum,
in case anyone is interested

MS SQL = SQL Server ?

My approach is not that scientific, and I am by no means an expert in MS SQL, but here's what I'd do:

Have you already selected a hardware platform and operating system? If so, the choice for me is simple:
- Windoze: MS
- Unix: Oracle
- Mainframe: DB2

I have used Oracle before on both Unix and Windoze (server that is, not client) and it is always bliss on Unix, and nightmare on Windoze. That's personal opinion though.

If you are selecting the RDBMS before OS, then the same process works in reverse. That doesn't help you select an RDBMS though.

The differentiating features I can think of:
- Oracle is more labour intensive and requires a full-time skilled DBA with detailed knowledge of your DB setup.
- MS is cheaper (I think).
- Contract labour is plentiful for both.
- Final application build quality and performance is comparable.
- Oracle comes with some fancy add-ins that most sites will never use, but if you do then they're great.
- Oracle is arguably more scalable at the high-end.

Also, if you are building a data warehouse, then Sybase IQ and RedBrick are worth a close look. They should not be ruled out simply on the basis of relative obscurity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ross Leishman

He makes some points. I would've preferred he followed up on them, though... especially why he finds MS SQL a nightmare. Weak on specifics.

- mongril

 

[SQLDenis]

>>especially why he finds MS SQL a nightmare. Weak on specifics.


>>I have used Oracle before on both Unix and Windoze (server that is, not client) and it is always bliss on Unix, and nightmare on Windoze. That's personal opinion though.


I think he is saying Oracle is a nightmare on Windows not SQL server

Denis The SQL Menace
SQL blog:

http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/

Personal Blog:

http://otherthingsnow.blogspot.com/

 

[Mongr1l]

Ah... you're right. I should've read it carefully.

Thanks, Dennis.

- mongril

 

[SQLDenis]

I'm currently finishing the "MS SQL SERVER 2000 Analysis Services" book. I'm on the Storage Optimization chapter

Is this the MS one or the WROX (red) one
I have both + some Kimball and Inmon books (the fathers of data warehousing)

Data warehousing is kind of interesting since you have to change your mindset and think in multi dimensions instead of rows and columns and also you denormalize (snowflake, star) instead of normalize

And of cpurse MDX is a whole other ballgame

What do you think of that VB app (to write the MDX queries) that comes with it? I can not believe they don't have a plugin for enterprise manager for that stuff

Denis The SQL Menace
SQL blog:

http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/

Personal Blog:

http://otherthingsnow.blogspot.com/

 

[Mongr1l]

Is this the MS one or the WROX (red) one

Actually, I misprinted the title. Its "Step by Step: Microsoft SQL Server 2000 Analysis Services."

It's by Reed Jacobson. It is a great read, especially for OLAP newbies like myself. Full of examples and in depth projects. I strongly recommend it. You won't be sorry.

I have both + some Kimball and Inmon books (the fathers of data warehousing)

That's good to know, because I plan on getting other books on Data warehousing.

However, the next book I need to finish will have to be
"SQL Server 2000 DTS STEP By STEP," by Carl Rabeler. Actually, this is the book that got me on the OLAP path. I was reading this book to understand DTS better and it kept referrencing OLAP Servers, Cubes, etc... until I got so frustrated that I stopped and got me the OLAP book.

So now I have to finish the DTS book, which is also another great read.

However, next on my reading list after the DTS book will have to be "Visual Basic .NET For Experienced Programmers" by Deitel and Deitel (father son team).

But if you have any good suggestions about reading material for Analysis Services, OLAP, or Data warehousing, please let me know. I really love the stuff!!


Especially if there are books out there that tie VB.NET and OLAP together. Please let me know!!!

What do you think of that VB app (to write the MDX queries) that comes with it? I can not believe they don't have a plugin for enterprise manager for that stuff

Yeah, that one had me scratching my head. It was strange, since it seemed like it was something that should've come as part of either the Analysis Manager or EM, just like Query Analyzer. What's up with that?

 

[Mongr1l]

By the way, (and this question should probably be another thread), if anyone has any good suggestions for Business Intelligence that comes with SQL Server 2005, feel free to post suggestions on that, too.

I'm always trying to stay ahead of the curve.


I have recently switched jobs (because my former employer wasn't paying enough), and I was surprised how many employers DON'T know anything about OLAP or Analysis Services or anything related to Data warehousing.

I found this odd, especially for large companies that deal with a very high volume of data.

Just mentioning OLAP raised eyebrows and put me as the lead candidate. And I interviewed as VB.NET - SQL Developer.

Something to keep in mind for those of you thinking about a job change.

- mongril

 

[Gooser]

The oracle guy said oracle was a nightmare on Windows?

Is he a double-agent!?

I've never heard any unix geek say anything bad about oracle, ever. Isn't he afraid of being thrown into the volcano?

v/r

Gooser

oh, and I love this quote!

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

 

[123FakeSt]

>>I just bought 20 Proclarity licenses

You know MS bought Proclarity in April right?
Will probably be free in the next version ;-(

Yeah I had a big discussion with their sales force and some of their engineers. They indicated it was their [MS] long term stategy to keep them seperate, and even provided documentation to support that. Never know though ....

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

 

[Welshbird]

My tuppence for what it is worth: I only analyse the data, and have never been involved in administering either platform, so from my very personal point of view, there are things I can do so much more easily with built-in analytical functions in Oracle that I couldn't do so simply in MS-SQL.

I actually find SQLPlus really nice to use, but then I prefer typing to mouse-clicking, so am never all that happy in a GUI environment. I love the way it runs scripts, and can export data with so much personal control of it.

Oracle was thrust upon me initially, and I fought against it quite hard, but now I'd hate to go back to MS-SQL.

(I still pop in here in case I can help though! My questions now are in the Oracle 10g forum rather than here!)


Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[SQLSister]

Yes but note he says Windoze - he hates windows with a passion methinks. At that he was fair in his assessment of SQL Server from his vantage point. And he admits his knowledge of SQL Server is not strong. I'm not sure I agree with him about the oracle being stronger at teh high end though. So much of this is truly dependednt onteh design of the database and user interface. I've worked places with high end Oracle systems which crawled (10 minutes to move from one screen to another inthe user interface) but I don;t think that is Oracle's fault - it was the system design of that particular system. I think many Oracle developers are more experienced in developing high end systems where performnce is a key factor of the design, but that too has been changing.

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[Gooser]

Perhaps MS SQL's ease-of-use has been [at least partly] a drawback, in that it doesn't take a ton of experience to get up-and-going. This leaves you with less-experienced people [sometimes, at least] designing systems.

Actually, on my first database, I was handed a couple of books and an SRS, pointed at a computer, and left alone. I was told to make a database or go to Leavenworth.

It took me a while, but I did just fine with no training at all!

Just some thoughts.

v/r

Gooser

 

[DotNetGnat]

The native tools are all java, and we all know how well a large java app running on a Windows desktop works.

isn't ERP a large Java app running on a windows desktop? isnt it the largely accepted and successful app?

and...

I still wish SQL Server has Sequences like Oracle does.

-DNG