This website is full of humorous entries, but this one, I felt, was important enough, and true enough, to deserve some mention here.
Tao Te Ching Discussions : Chapter 9 (includes links to previous chapters)
What is the nature of conflict?
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Why good programming is also bad communicating 3
- Thread starter Trevoke
- Start date
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This website is full of humorous entries, but this one, I felt, was important enough, and true enough, to deserve some mention here.
Tao Te Ching Discussions : Chapter 9 (includes links to previous chapters)
What is the nature of conflict?
BillyRayPreachersSon
Programmer
I guess he's never worked in, nor studied, a highly-motivated, highly-skilled, agile team of developers, then.
One of the key points about working in such an environment is that good and effective communication aids and goes hand-in-hand with good programming.
Having spent the last 4 years pair programming for almost every day, I found it amazing how I needed to drink so much water... because all of the talking you're continually doing throughout the day with your pair really dries your mouth out!
Basically, I wholeheartedly disagree with the title of this post!
Dan
Coedit Limited - Delivering standards compliant, accessible web solutions
Dan's Page [blue]@[/blue] Code Couch:
Code Couch Tech Snippets & Info:
One of the key points about working in such an environment is that good and effective communication aids and goes hand-in-hand with good programming.
Having spent the last 4 years pair programming for almost every day, I found it amazing how I needed to drink so much water... because all of the talking you're continually doing throughout the day with your pair really dries your mouth out!
Basically, I wholeheartedly disagree with the title of this post!
Dan
Coedit Limited - Delivering standards compliant, accessible web solutions
Dan's Page [blue]@[/blue] Code Couch:
Code Couch Tech Snippets & Info:
Surely the art of good programming is being able to communicate effectively with both complex systems and the not very complex operators.
Keith
Keith
- Thread starter
- #4
BillyRay : He is talking specifically about the scenario of talking to non-programmers. An agile team of developers is .. Developers! That (should) mean like-minded people, and so the post doesn't apply 
Tao Te Ching Discussions : Chapter 9 (includes links to previous chapters)
What is the nature of conflict?
Tao Te Ching Discussions : Chapter 9 (includes links to previous chapters)
What is the nature of conflict?
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2
- #5
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I appreciate the sentiment provided you restrict the definition of programmer to one who does nothing but write effective and efficient code. But I think there is a difference between a coder and a programmer. I think being a programmer also means being a part of the organization, which includes both the IT department and the company as a whole. And therefore, being a good programmer requires that you not only be good at generating code, but also good at interfacing with your fellow IT staff, and with your user community.
There are lots of people who are good coders, in fact, great coders, but I don't consider them good programmers if that's all they can do.
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There are lots of people who are good coders, in fact, great coders, but I don't consider them good programmers if that's all they can do.
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traingamer
Programmer
If you cannot communicate, you cannot be a good programmer.
It really is that simple.
I'm reminded of the old joke:
Greg
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. Kierkegaard
It really is that simple.
I'm reminded of the old joke:
Greg
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. Kierkegaard
SkipVought
Programmer
Isn't one that is not just a programmer (coder), referred to as a programmer/analyst?
Skip,
[sub]
![[glasses]](/data/assets/smilies/glasses.gif "[glasses] [glasses]")
Just traded in my old subtlety...for a NUANCE!
![[tongue]](/data/assets/smilies/tongue.gif "[tongue] [tongue]")
[/sub]
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Not in my book. Being able to communicate with other people doesn't make you an analyst.
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I agree with CC 100%.
A good programmer not only knows how to program, he knows how to communicate, is willing to learn new things, and thinks about the poor guy who has to maintain his work later on.
Once I had a job where a former programmer wrote a program that used single letter variable names (A, B, C), and did other obscure tstuff like use arrays to manipulate strings (even though the language had some fairly comprehensive string handling). Worse, there were no comments at all in the code. It looked like the output from a decompiler.
After five minutes, I gave up, and asked someone what the program was supposed to do, and completely re-wrote it. Nothing brings me to a boil faster than undocumented obscure code.
-- Francis
I'd like to change the world, but I can't find the source code.
A good programmer not only knows how to program, he knows how to communicate, is willing to learn new things, and thinks about the poor guy who has to maintain his work later on.
Once I had a job where a former programmer wrote a program that used single letter variable names (A, B, C), and did other obscure tstuff like use arrays to manipulate strings (even though the language had some fairly comprehensive string handling). Worse, there were no comments at all in the code. It looked like the output from a decompiler.
After five minutes, I gave up, and asked someone what the program was supposed to do, and completely re-wrote it. Nothing brings me to a boil faster than undocumented obscure code.
-- Francis
I'd like to change the world, but I can't find the source code.
Francis, that reminds me of my BASIC days, where single letter variables where standard/common and usually no REM statements except at the very beginning of the code...
but at least BASIC was easier to understand when one read it...
I know now why I left programming behind me, saved me stress in deciphering other peoples stuff (and a heart attack or two)...
though I do not code today, I have experience in several languages, and can discern simple programs, I will lift my hat to any programmer that has to code tens of thousands lines and does this so that others can follow it (ergo a real programmer)...
Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"
but at least BASIC was easier to understand when one read it...
I know now why I left programming behind me, saved me stress in deciphering other peoples stuff (and a heart attack or two)...
though I do not code today, I have experience in several languages, and can discern simple programs, I will lift my hat to any programmer that has to code tens of thousands lines and does this so that others can follow it (ergo a real programmer)...
Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"
- Moderator
- #11
I've always worked the problem from the other direction.
After knowing what Management wants the outcome to be, I work from the end user backwards.
"Management wants to collect data on bla bla bla.... what would be the most efficient / easiest way for you to enter that data?"
That gets the end user vested in the program to begin with, since they had input into the design.
I've actually had people walk into my office with drawings of screens, saying "If we could just put it in this way, with a drop-down here, it would speed up the entry of..." etc.
Just my 2¢
"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."
--Greg
After knowing what Management wants the outcome to be, I work from the end user backwards.
"Management wants to collect data on bla bla bla.... what would be the most efficient / easiest way for you to enter that data?"
That gets the end user vested in the program to begin with, since they had input into the design.
I've actually had people walk into my office with drawings of screens, saying "If we could just put it in this way, with a drop-down here, it would speed up the entry of..." etc.
Just my 2¢
"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."
--Greg
Guest_imported
New member
- Jan 1, 1970
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Worse, there were no comments at all in the code."
I had a colleague who told me he never put comments in his code- he said "Well it was difficult to write so it should be difficult to read"
Jim Brown,
Tech writer and training consultant,
Johannesburg,
South Africa.
My time is GMT+2
King Arthur: If you will not show us the Grail, we shall take your castle by force!
French Guard: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all yo
I had a colleague who told me he never put comments in his code- he said "Well it was difficult to write so it should be difficult to read"
Jim Brown,
Tech writer and training consultant,
Johannesburg,
South Africa.
My time is GMT+2
King Arthur: If you will not show us the Grail, we shall take your castle by force!
French Guard: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all yo
I prefer not to comment in code unless it's necessary. Code gets updated, comments do not tend to. This leads to more confusion than not having comments in the first place.
I think comments should be reserved for overly complicated code. If a programmer is a good communicator, the code will be self-documenting.
Thanks,
Andrew
![[smarty]](/data/assets/smilies/smarty.gif "[smarty] [smarty]")
Hard work often pays off over time, but procrastination pays off right now!
I think comments should be reserved for overly complicated code. If a programmer is a good communicator, the code will be self-documenting.
Thanks,
Andrew
Hard work often pays off over time, but procrastination pays off right now!About comments:
Commenting code should only be required to explain the intent behind blocks of code. Thre should also be a "header" section that describes the programs purpose and the changes made. Comments tend to obfuscate isntead of enlighten if there are too many.
![[reindeer]](/data/assets/smilies/reindeer.gif "[reindeer] [reindeer]")
Commenting code should only be required to explain the intent behind blocks of code. Thre should also be a "header" section that describes the programs purpose and the changes made. Comments tend to obfuscate isntead of enlighten if there are too many.
- Moderator
- #15
I agree. My comments are usually something like:
Code:
' Take the results, turn them inside out, and return
' the answer.
' Passes: Results as Numeric
' Returns: BooleanI really hate code that looks like this:
Code:
' Add X and Y to get Z
Z = X + Y
' Now divide Z by 50
Z = Z / 50I mean, good grief.
I will leave myself "Notes" in code... comments really more for myself; like:
Code:
' This bit is a work-around for a shortcoming in the way
' that xxxyyy program handles time and date....
' bla bla details bla bla....... which helps me to remember why I did something later that is "out of the ordinary" for my normal programming style.
Just my 2¢
"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."
--Greg
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- #16
lisaharris
Programmer
I found a comment in some xsl code. I still haven't figured out who was responsible, but I've left it in the document. It's not hurting anything, and it brings a smile every time I stumble upon it.
__________
Veni, Vidi, Visa: I came, I saw, I charged it.
Code:
<fo:block id="terminator3"/> <!-- Rise of the Machines -->__________
Veni, Vidi, Visa: I came, I saw, I charged it.
![[2thumbsup]](/data/assets/smilies/2thumbsup.gif "[2thumbsup] [2thumbsup]")
- Moderator
- #18
lisaharris:
![[rofl]](/data/assets/smilies/rofl.gif "[rofl] [rofl]")
Just my 2¢
"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."
--Greg
Just my 2¢
"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."
--Greg
I tend to be writing v long SQL scripts which for a very long have comments like the following:
. Hopefully no-one else gets to read them before I finish them!
Fee
"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Code:
-- Some sensible thang wot calculates the ansa has to go hereFee
"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen
I'm no programmer, but I love seing those unexpected things rear their heads.
Everytime we install one of a out key apps, at he end up pops a windows box.
Title of the box?
"Should Not See Me"
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
Everytime we install one of a out key apps, at he end up pops a windows box.
Title of the box?
"Should Not See Me"
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
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