Hey everyone, I am planning on quitting my current job, but during my employment, I have developed a few apps that were used to streamline common data tasks using Visual Foxpro. I was in no way hired as a programmer. My job title is Department Manager. I knew nothing four years ago and have learned VFP over many long nights. I wrote these APP's to be used at the company, but were written on personal time. I do not want the company to keep these applications. Are they legally mine? Do I have the right to take them? Thanks for any input.
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Who's APP is it?
- Thread starter FoxFool
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- #3
If it gets sticky you probably own 90% of the applications but the company can claim enough investment in your paid time to be partial owner.
And since you used them at work it probably will require you to leave them.
Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.
And since you used them at work it probably will require you to leave them.
Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.
I've been in the same situation. You don't have a leg to stand on to take the programs away from the company. But you have every right to keep a copy of the program for your own future use or sale.
Not sure where your at, but I would check with a lawyer.
Pain is stress leaving the body.
DoubleD![[bigcheeks]](/data/assets/smilies/bigcheeks.gif "[bigcheeks] [bigcheeks]")
Not sure where your at, but I would check with a lawyer.
Pain is stress leaving the body.
DoubleD
sleipnir214
Programmer
To add to DoubleD's excellent advice:
I recommend that you consult an attorney who specializes in intellectual property.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
I recommend that you consult an attorney who specializes in intellectual property.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
SemperFiDownUnda
Instructor
Does anyone know about these programs besides you? If your boss doesn't know how you get something done and you've developed this on your own time then thats an issue your boss needs to come to terms with.
I'd also suggest talking with a lawer about the IP issues of these programs.
Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first
I'd also suggest talking with a lawer about the IP issues of these programs.
Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first
The problem is you're in managment. I know at least in Canada, employees in Mngmt get screwed over a lot. They sometimes don't get OT pay etc. So time spent at home developing products is company time as well.
The company could argue that your salary was based off of how quickly you got work done. And if that meant you needed to develop tools to do that then those tools belong to the company.
What I would suggest is. If you can compile this code, so that it is an executable type thing. Then do that. Leave it there compiled. In a few months the program will be useless because they won't be able to change it.
Casper
There is room for all of gods creatures, "Right Beside the Mashed Potatoes".
The company could argue that your salary was based off of how quickly you got work done. And if that meant you needed to develop tools to do that then those tools belong to the company.
What I would suggest is. If you can compile this code, so that it is an executable type thing. Then do that. Leave it there compiled. In a few months the program will be useless because they won't be able to change it.
Casper
There is room for all of gods creatures, "Right Beside the Mashed Potatoes".
Most of the apps I have written at work are company specific, they'd be useless to anyone else. But, when I started at my company, the contract I signed stated that anything I create on company time or on company equipment is strictly property of the company. In this case the burden of support is upon their shoulders. You are in no way, unless contractually bound, obligated to offer any type of support for that software. Now if you signed a contract that stated, not only is the software theirs but you are bound to support it, then I would question why you signed the contract. 
-Al
-Al
If you received payment (paycheck) to create this application then you did so for your employer. However, since the app also exists on you personal pc and the original is not copywrite protected it is a gray area. Leagally it's theirs.
I had the same problem w/ my previous employer. I created a fully automated system that ended up being the major driving force for this company. As it turned out I kept a copy of the source code that I've used as a template for new systems I've built.
I had the same problem w/ my previous employer. I created a fully automated system that ended up being the major driving force for this company. As it turned out I kept a copy of the source code that I've used as a template for new systems I've built.
If you brought in your own pencil at work, and it was a 'super-pencil', that allowed you to get your job done faster, you should be able to take it with you. Same with this program--you developed it on your time, (mostly) and used this personal system to help you in your job.
To me it's a no-brainer--back to the 'super-pencil' analogy--if that pencil broke at work, and you spent a few minutes taping it together (with your own tape), does that mean the company now owns the pencil? Absolutely not. If they want to argue that you're doing personal stuff on their time, then it's splitting hairs. Let them try.
What if your jacket lost a button and you sewed it back on at work? They don't own your jacket. The program's yours. Take it and all copies with you. Ask for a reasonable fee if they want to keep it.
--Jim
To me it's a no-brainer--back to the 'super-pencil' analogy--if that pencil broke at work, and you spent a few minutes taping it together (with your own tape), does that mean the company now owns the pencil? Absolutely not. If they want to argue that you're doing personal stuff on their time, then it's splitting hairs. Let them try.
What if your jacket lost a button and you sewed it back on at work? They don't own your jacket. The program's yours. Take it and all copies with you. Ask for a reasonable fee if they want to keep it.
--Jim
sleipnir214
Programmer
jsteph:
It is no way that simple when you're talking about intellectual property law.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
It is no way that simple when you're talking about intellectual property law.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I'm sorry jsteph, it is a rather complicated issue and the best advice which has already been given and I echo, is to seek the advice of a intellectual property attorney.
One of the issues that you'll have to deal with is the business process itself. The tasks that you streamlined with your code could be considered trade secrets of the company. And the combination of those tasks a proprietary process. That you developed a tool to streamline those tasks does not change the fact that the tasks are trade secrets of the company, and process is proprietory.
The point here is that you could find youself on the back side of a restraining order prevening you from ever selling, or in any other way, using or divulging any of the code. Seek professional advice, and come to an understaning with the company.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
One of the issues that you'll have to deal with is the business process itself. The tasks that you streamlined with your code could be considered trade secrets of the company. And the combination of those tasks a proprietary process. That you developed a tool to streamline those tasks does not change the fact that the tasks are trade secrets of the company, and process is proprietory.
The point here is that you could find youself on the back side of a restraining order prevening you from ever selling, or in any other way, using or divulging any of the code. Seek professional advice, and come to an understaning with the company.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I agree that seeking an attorney's advice is a good start, but wouldn't foxfool have had to sign a non-disclosure at his hiring if he were taught a proprietary trade secret?
Ie, a company can't just say "Oh, by the way, taking a rubber stamp, applying ink, and pounding it on the invoice is a trade secret, and when you leave this company, if you do those tasks in that order for anyone else, then we'll sue you."
I guess that's the advice of an attorney is needed, but what I saw was that *he* developed the app to streamline "common data tasks". So the process seems like it should be public domain (ie, putting a stamp to ink, pounding it on an invoice), but the streamlining, which was done by foxfool, is proprietary--proprietary to foxfool and not his former employer.
But I'm not an attorney, I just play one on Tek-Tips.
--jim
Ie, a company can't just say "Oh, by the way, taking a rubber stamp, applying ink, and pounding it on the invoice is a trade secret, and when you leave this company, if you do those tasks in that order for anyone else, then we'll sue you."
I guess that's the advice of an attorney is needed, but what I saw was that *he* developed the app to streamline "common data tasks". So the process seems like it should be public domain (ie, putting a stamp to ink, pounding it on an invoice), but the streamlining, which was done by foxfool, is proprietary--proprietary to foxfool and not his former employer.
But I'm not an attorney, I just play one on Tek-Tips.
--jim
Your question is best posed to your lawyer. Outside of that, it kind of depends on how you want to leave you employer. Are you planning to sing a few verses of "Take This Job and Shove It!" on your way out, or are you helping to select and train your replacement?
Your employer can argue that "whatever you developed was designed to perform your job - not a hobby of some sort. Had they known that streamlining was needed, they would have developed a process to do so - with or without you.
"You can't 'secretly' develop something that alters company procedures and then take it with you. If they didn't hire you, you wouldn't have developed it. It's their product."
Too bad you did it on "your own time", and with no pay. Were you trying to hide something?
"You can't 'secretly' develop something that alters company procedures and then take it with you. If they didn't hire you, you wouldn't have developed it. It's their product."
Too bad you did it on "your own time", and with no pay. Were you trying to hide something?
In the pure sense, if you created some App that had nothing to do with your job, and you didnt bring it to work, your split with the company might be somewhat clean.
But, you muddied the waters when you ...
1. Designed and created an application while under the employ of XYZ, Inc.
2. Created an application that had no other use other can XYZs business purpose at the time of the creation.
3. Used company equipment.
4. Used company client information to test and configure ..
5. Incorporated such application into XYZ's procedures.
EVEN if you don't want money, some type of agreement needs be made between you and XYZ, Inc. because your leaving will leave them with an unsupported application. They've either got get you to give support, get some of their present employees to support it, hire someone from the outside to support it, or get rid of it and get something new. A half-way decent lawyer will be able to say that your leaving will cost the company some time and money.
But, you muddied the waters when you ...
1. Designed and created an application while under the employ of XYZ, Inc.
2. Created an application that had no other use other can XYZs business purpose at the time of the creation.
3. Used company equipment.
4. Used company client information to test and configure ..
5. Incorporated such application into XYZ's procedures.
EVEN if you don't want money, some type of agreement needs be made between you and XYZ, Inc. because your leaving will leave them with an unsupported application. They've either got get you to give support, get some of their present employees to support it, hire someone from the outside to support it, or get rid of it and get something new. A half-way decent lawyer will be able to say that your leaving will cost the company some time and money.
Your employment contract should state clearly whether the company owns what you do that involves any of the companies time (i.e. if you did it in the companies time), equipment (the companies license of FoxPro).
I have not come across a contract where the company doesn't own those products.
Often they go further. I have had several where I had to offer the company the ability of first refusal on any IP I had even if it wasn't connected with the company in any way (note that this was probably not enforcible... I am not sure).
Sorry,
Matthew
The Universe: God's novelty screensaver?
I have not come across a contract where the company doesn't own those products.
Often they go further. I have had several where I had to offer the company the ability of first refusal on any IP I had even if it wasn't connected with the company in any way (note that this was probably not enforcible... I am not sure).
Sorry,
Matthew
The Universe: God's novelty screensaver?
GoTellBigDaddy
Vendor
dependz upon several factors:
1. What state you work in,
2. What state you reside in,
3. Any employeer agreements or
4. Any employeer POLICIES and PROCEDURES you don't know about ?
Now the remaining argument: I do not want the company to keep these applications. Are they legally mine? Do I have the right to take them?
Again it dependz. If this is an important issue- how valuable is it ? If you are $100,000 or more then consider hiring a lawyer. If less, then ask: can someone else do what you did ? Is what you want worth fighting for ? Do you really have to fight ? Okay, you leave and take your work with you...?
Intellectual Property, Right To Work, Employee and Employeer RIghts and Responsibilities are different state by state. It's GRAY matter.
Best wishes to you
1. What state you work in,
2. What state you reside in,
3. Any employeer agreements or
4. Any employeer POLICIES and PROCEDURES you don't know about ?
Now the remaining argument: I do not want the company to keep these applications. Are they legally mine? Do I have the right to take them?
Again it dependz. If this is an important issue- how valuable is it ? If you are $100,000 or more then consider hiring a lawyer. If less, then ask: can someone else do what you did ? Is what you want worth fighting for ? Do you really have to fight ? Okay, you leave and take your work with you...?
Intellectual Property, Right To Work, Employee and Employeer RIghts and Responsibilities are different state by state. It's GRAY matter.
Best wishes to you
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