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What is the value of W3C validation if... 1

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henrybarnett

henrybarnett

Technical User
Mar 25, 2009
10
FR
I have asked a French website company to write a website for me. I validated it using W3C's Validation service and saw loads of errors on every page. The declared doc type is:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" transitional.dtd"> <html xmlns="...

When I validate any of the pages it said there were Meta tags in uppercase and not closed properly, nesting errors, tags not allowed and more. The company told me their code written with Dreamweaver 8 and was correct. They pointed out that if I validated Google's or Firefox's or Microsoft's main page, they will and do show errors. So what is the value of WW3 validation and is "bad" code in this case bad? Will it not work in some browsers? For the moment I have no answer to give them. The site, which is half-live (!), is villa-stbarths com. I wrote another website myself henry-bar net which has no errors (I corrected them all) and it works fine. Should I pursue my gripe or let it go. Will it work as is? Henry
 
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They are taking you for a fool. Their code is not correct for the DOCTYPE, plain and simple.

If you are paying them for this, I would withhold any more payment until they fix this. Companies like this give the web development community a bad name.

I'm also appalled to see that any modern web development company still uses tables for layout - and from Dreamweaver, at that. Get them to hand-code decent markup without tables, or go elsewhere.

Hope this helps,

Dan



Coedit Limited - Delivering standards compliant, accessible web solutions

Dan's Page [blue]@[/blue] Code Couch:
Code Couch Tech Snippets & Info:
 
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I have to agree with Dan.

No self respecting Web design firm would even attempt to pass the code they gave you as a commercial website.

Tables for layout? Did they learn to code websites 10 years ago and then never learned anything new?

The code looks really complex, and would be really hard to maintain or update if you ask me.

So because some other sites don't validate their sites, they don't have to? Its like saying "Because some people don't pay there taxes you don't have to pay them either." or Because some people have a messy house you should have a messy one too?
Validating like paying taxes or having a clean house is something you do because its right, because it means more people will be able to see your site as its meant to be seen.

I wouldn't trust anybody who uses Microsoft as an example. They are the least standard compliant company out there. IE wasn't even fully compliant until IE8 now and it still missing a few things.

Also in this day an age, a site that correctly validates helps make sure that mobile users will able to see your site correctly. Instead of as a jumbled mess.

If it where me, I'd ask them to fix the site so it validates. Hey if your paying and that's what you want then they should produce a site you are happy with in all aspects.

Not give lame excuses of why it doesn't validate.




----------------------------------
Phil AKA Vacunita
----------------------------------
Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.
 
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Hi Henry,

I have just set up my own personal website as a mock run to help me learn xhtml and css before I set up a site that my business will run off.

I started out as a complete novice a month ago with no knowledge of code at all, and I managed to hand code a site without a programme.

I also managed to validate it myself and get it all working after posting a few questions on here which were answered by some very helpful and knowledgable people.

Now if I can do this after a month, albeit a bit of a struggle and a lot of brainache, surely you would expect a professional webdesign company to be able to do it.

From what I understand validation is there to try and ensure your web page displays the same in different browsers.

As for Microsoft a lot of their stuff is specifically and deliberately coded to only work on internet explorer, so I don't buy that excuse.

Even if they are using a coding programme, someone should be checking it afterwards and removing any surplus code and tidying up mistakes.

Seems like a very unprofessional service, not tyring to please customers at all.
 
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Thanks for your replies. I kinda thought that too but wanted to see what others thought. Had I not signed a contract I would be long gone. Unfortunately a contract in France is harder to get out of and payment, once started is also hard to stop. Believe me here. You guys are giving me ammo and appreciated too.

I not so concerned at the use of tables as it does the job here. If you saw the site you'll understand that I want visitors to find it and who want to rent and contact me. Too fancy a site is not necessary and my photos do seem to do the job. What concerned me most was what are the effects of bad code.

In fact I corrected one of their pages myself except for a disallowed "embed" tag which should be replaced by something else. It didn't take too long. However I'm dammed if I'll correct their work when they are being paid!!

So I suppose the question I'd like answered most is if it "seems" to work on Chrome, FF and IE why should I insist (which I will to the bitter end) that it is valid code. For example if in declared XTHML a meta tag is in upper-case and not closed properly what is the result here?
 
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What does your contract with them say the deliverable should be (i.e. when is it considered fulfilled)?

If it stipulates anything about supplying standard markup or standards-compliant markup, then withhold payment until they deliver on this.

If it does not, then you could argue that because what they've given you does not validate, you will not sign off on it, and thus will not pay them.

Either way, you should not back down on this one. If all else fails, tell them to go to hell and find a better company that will provide valid code.

Perhaps you could post the name of these no-good cowboys so that others know who to avoid in future.

Dan



Coedit Limited - Delivering standards compliant, accessible web solutions

Dan's Page [blue]@[/blue] Code Couch:
Code Couch Tech Snippets & Info:
 
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Will it not work in some browsers?
Click to expand...
To answer your original and most pressing question, most invalid code will work in most browsers. However, it's impossible to say whether your particular set of invalidities will cause problems.

That's part of the point of validating - it's not that invalid code never works, clearly that's not the case (cf. Google et al), it's that you can't be sure so why take the risk? There are enough factors out there that you can't control, so why not fix the things that you can?

The other thing about validating is that it traps silly errors. Look at how many posts we get on this forum along the lines of "my page has xxx fault on yyy browser", and it emerges that they didn't close an element or mangled a CSS rule. Validating will trap that kind of thing.

On the broader point, I'm with Dan - don't pay unless they provide you some valid code.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd
 
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I agree with what everyone else has said. It's pretty slapdash for a page with a Doctype not to validate. I thought it might validate with a different Doctype, but no, it's a pile of dung all over.

I took a look at the errors on the homepage and in all honesty it's about 30 minutes work to fix... an hour at most.

That's very poor from a "professional" web company. Either it validates or it doesn't. This doesn't so why bother with Doctypes?

My guess is they meant it to validate but don't really know what they are doing. What pro development company uses Dreamweaver and claims its code is right all the time?


You should also consider moving away from tables for the reasons you yourself specified. It will help you in the long run and there's nothing really "fancy" about using CSS for layout. Its just the way to do it. There is no need to add bloat and hinder maintainability by using tables nowadays.

This currently reflects on your site as it seemed extremely slow to complete loading (for me anyway).

In your business sector the competition is HUGE! Don't start at a disadvantage by having a bloated, slow loading, inaccessible and cumbersome website.


Besides everyone knows the best web companies are all in the UK ;) Actually, many of the worst are too but we don't like to talk about them.


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Odd.
I was just going back to get the source from your page to make it validate (I have a spare 30 mins) and it now seems to redirect to another site.


Anyway...

I realised I hadn't really answered your actual question.

The reason you want the code to validate is that you are telling the browser how YOU want the page to render and you are not leaving it up to the best guess of the browser's developers.

It really is so easy to make a page validate that it should be a no-brainer. I'd be very suspcious of any "pro" company that thought it might be a bit too much effort.

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The company is CORTIX fr (by the way their site validates!!)they say they have 20,000 sites by them. So I presumed (big mistake), that they knew what they were doing.

Dan and everyone again thanks for your input. I'll give them the opportunity to do it correctly and if not I will stop payment but in France I will have to sue them and that might be very un-cost-effective. However I can be very devious and can and will make them give me a proper site.

I'll keep you posted.

OH DEAR... Our contract was signed on 8th January and I have just seen a TV program on France 2 which came out 13th January saying that this company is robbing people. Too much being paid for too little or bad sites. So, feeling gutted, I shall make them fulfil their contract or try and sue them.
 
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If the money has not yet cleared, simply withhold payment and say you are going elsewhere unless they do a proper job. No need to sue anybody that way...




Coedit Limited - Delivering standards compliant, accessible web solutions

Dan's Page [blue]@[/blue] Code Couch:
Code Couch Tech Snippets & Info:
 
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Despite of the common oppion against this website company, I'd consider they did thier job, they invested their time and if you only validated their html code now as they are finished, it's a bit late. It's like not paying a house becuse you don't like the cement they used.

As you already seem to have the producte you orderes, they have a point in billing for it.

And even if it's shaking the foundations and reputation of the web developemnt community, they are not using a to HTML editor with Dreamweaver.

I'll give you another example: All other browsers than Internet explorer have a better reputation in the web developer community, be it simply because the comply to W3C standards more than internet exlporer does. But w3C standards are not binding. Browsers in fact do not need to comply, it's simply better if all would, because then there would be no need for browser specific code. But on the other hand eg Firefox does not care for (all) group policies of windows.

So, partly it's your fault, if you didn't checked earlier or made it a part of the contract, that they must create w3c compliant html code. Even better you'd have pinpoined them on the doctype. I wonder what your reasons where in giving them the job. Either you know them already or their price was right, or a presentation of them and they features they incorporate into their sites was impressing you.

Considereing all this, you might not even have a point in negotiating a reduced price.

Bye, Olaf.
 
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..they are not using a toy html editor by using Dreamweaver...
Click to expand...

No, Dreamweaver is not a toy and is a very good piece of software but it will only do what you tell it to do. It is very possible to create junk code with Dreamweaver as it is with any HTML editor.

The code for the site in question had numerous errors that were introduced by misuse of the software.

For instance, at the end of the code was an unclosed <td> tag that was outside a table. That's rather poor.

My point was that it was fallacy to claim that just because the code was written with Dreamweaver it was "correct". It plainly wasn't.

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Olaf,

It's not my fault, at all, at all. They are slick sales people well trained to cope with all questions and get a signed contract.

So you have obviously completely misunderstood the problem. So, and for this reply only, I will tell you the problem. - They, CORTIX -and do remember the company name, contacted me and "sold me a package" that I was happy to accept as presented. Like you go into a store and buy a "thing" but when that "thing" is delivered instead of being what they "said it was going to be" (state of the art etc. ect.) it was just an old version of something older. Anyway they produced a website that I think I am stuck with and in all honesty will probably do the job. I could have paid less but no point in crying over spilt milk.

Just tell me what you think I should have paid for the website. Include please - construction, web hosting and site promotion. I will then tell you what I paid.

By the way and to use your analogy, if I engaged a house builder I would not expect to have to tell him how to mix the cement and in what quantities. He is, supposedly, the expert.

You obviously have no understanding of French law or French contracts. (Not your fault as I think you are Scandinavian) Anyway they (CORTIX - check that on Google) are very clever and their contract is written in very small but effective print. I should have been more attentive but I wasn't.

For anyone else reading this. The contract was signed and payment was immediate but spread over a term so saying I will not pay is out. Saying I'll stop paying is, according to their contract,sorry our contract, is also out. So I will have to live with this.

Anyway folks thanks to all of you for your input (positive or negative) and should I need another website I will contact certain of you without fail.

I'm now going to bed after a large gin and tonic and hoping to dream of powder snow and not W3c validating.

Nite Nite

Henry

PS the domain name cortix.net is for sale maybe I should buy it and F... them with it. Just a thought.
 
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It's not all bad.

The problems I saw earlier were easy to fix.

If you can't get them to fix it then live with it, see what you can fix and if you have any questions or need help then come back and ask here.

Like I said, the homepage fixes would take less than an hour. Most of the errors were for missing alt attributes and capitalised tags. The only "major" one was the way that the Flash movie was embedded - again, no biggie.

:)

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wrong html is a totally different point, but w3c validation does not only address real errors in code.

@henrybarnet: I can't tell you a price even though I can take a look at the site, the compexity and size of the site does not display itself, and there could be any amount of additional things like administrative login and management area invisble to the normal guest, offline data processing etc. So I won't make up an offer the company I work for would make. I also don't know what kind of quality assurance and testing of the website was contracted or not. I can only tell you that in my company we're talking about an hourly rate of about 100 EUR and if you have an estimate about the time that was needed to create that site, I wonder if you really paid as much as you seem to think.

Bye, Olaf.
 
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wrong html is a totally different point, but w3c validation does not only address real errors in code.
Click to expand...

That's precisely what it does do.

The definition of "wrong" is that the code doesn't follow a pre-defined specification.

That specification is denoted by the Doctype used. In this case the code didn't validate against the Doctype so therefore was/is "wrong".

If by "real errors" you mean that it picks up on things like capitalised tags then they are still "wrong" by definition of the Doctype. They will certainly render but that's only down to the good grace of the browser developers. Would you trust them?

For something so trivial to "fix" it's shocking that:

1. A "professional" outfit produced the code in the first place. The fact they did demonstrates that either they didn't know better or, perhaps worse, they didn't care.

2. They flatly refused to fix it when it was brought to their attention.



To the O.P.
Sounds like you are stuck with the site, but it's not all bad. It will work, but it could be better. Learn a lesson from the experience but don't lose heart as it isn't the end of the world by any means. You haven't wasted your money really, just not got the quality product you had hoped for.


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Olaf, I truly thank you for your input and hope I was not too harsh with you. You did however unwittingly give me the reason why I and others feel that mark up language should always be correct.

We, humans, have the capacity to parse text and without thinking I did so with you. (see below) Browsers also have that capacity but sometimes bad code will no doubt come back and bite you or have adverse effects with SEO. It would not have taken much effort for you to have validated your reply with say "Word" and I never post anything without doing that. So why does a reputable (?) company such as CORTIX accept bad code.

Here are the errors that Word found in your reply.
You wrote; oppion thier becuse producte orderes developemnt internet exlporer eg pinpointed Considereing
Which should of course be; opinion their because product orders development Internet Explorer e.g. pinpointed considering.There were also 2 grammatical errors.
 
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Dear Foamcow,

I have never written to a Foamcow before but there is always a first time. I can correct most errors but as you pointed out the embed tag is wrong. What should that be instead and what are the effects if left as is?

I will not lose heart and will somehow get the site right. I have learnt a valuable lesson which will not be repeated.

Olaf,

By the time they have finished I will have had a great chunk of my monies worth, however they could have saved themselves and myself hours of "agro" by writing it correctly in the first place.

Henry
 
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