What am I worth? 1

[benlinkknilneb]

Hi all,

I am currently working a paid internship for a manufacturing company. I am technically part of the Quality Assurance department, although all my work is programming. I have been here one year. I don't have my degree yet; 1 more year of school to go (BS Computer Science). I have been full-time during the summer, but my hours had to be reduced to accommodate my school schedule.

I now have 1 year of database programming in Access, and I'm starting to get my feet wet in MS SQL Server and Lotus Notes. I taught myself everything I know about the .NET framework/VB.NET; most of my collegiate courses have been in C++. I've toyed with C#, but haven't produced a major project yet. I am the only programmer in the plant; our IT department (currently just 2 people) does some programming in Notes, but they're mainly responsible for network administration and repairs.

I realize that pay scales are dependent on lots of things, such as location, experience, certifications, education, etc, but I'm wondering if I can establish something of a median value to give me an idea where I stand. If you were in my shoes, what kind of compensation would you request on an hourly basis?

 

[manarth]

In the UK, maybe £5 - £7 ph. Pay scales are often hugely weighted in favour of experience rather than skills, and without a degree, you don't have a certificate to 'validate' a higher salary.

On the other hand, after a year you have (hopefully) proved your worth - how open is the company about salaries? Any idea what your colleagues / boss is on?

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Hi manarth;

That's just the problem I'm facing; I'm essentially the &quot;first of my kind&quot; for this company; there are no other people who are hired *just* for programming, so I don't have too much of a basis for comparison... On a related note, we have taken 'temporary' across-the-board pay cuts in the last year (~8%) because of the sad economic state... I say 'temporary' because there is no time limit associated, just whenever business picks up, the regular wages will be restored.

I am finding (so far) that I'm about middle-ground. Apparently I'm doing well for someone without a degree; once I finish school, how would you suggest I pursue a salary increase, considering our economic climate?

 

[manarth]

Hi benlinkknilneb,

I think asking for a raise when you've recently taken a pay cut will be quite a challenge...

My way to approach this would be to hit the job market - apply for a few jobs, go to the interviews, hopefully get as far as an offer - then tell your company that you've been offered job xxx paying yyy, and although you'd like to stay, you feel that as your role has grown since you joined and you're now doing zzz for the company, you feel your salary should reflect your skills and the job market's appraisal of your worth.

Suggesting ways to expand your role or explaining how you add value / save money for the company can help. If you can tell your boss that the work you did has saved the company £xxxx (by streamlining xx, automating yy, saving this much company time) you have ammunition to fight with.

Having a job offer on the table will show how much you're worth, plus you may find you want to take up the new job!

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[abds]

Imho, a 4 year degree is worth 6-9 months of experience as a professional programmer. On the other hand, any experience with a real project (i.e. multi-K lines of code with everchanging requirements) is worth its weight in gold.

Phil

We are drowning in data, but we are starving for information.

 

[skiflyer]

abds

Just curious, what do you mean a 4 year degree is worth 6-9 months of experience as a professional programmer?

Do you mean in the individuals experience and skillset, or in what the market is willing to pay them? Same question to the rest of your post.

Personally, I don't have the energy to enter a conversation about the merits of a formal education on the skillsets, but in the market place, I can't agree with that statement. A 4 year degree is simply the difference between getting hired or not in this market... especially for a beginner.

-Rob

 

[dwarfthrower]

>> A 4 year degree is simply the difference between getting hired or not in this market... especially for a beginner

Absolutely right. For a beginner, the 4 year degree would be the difference between 6-9 months of experience and no experience. As the person builds up more experience, the degree becomes of less and less value.

 

[smedvid]

My advice is...
Consider your current position as on-the-job training and experience. These are extremely valuable and give you a leg up when you do complete your schooling. I imagine that you may not be with the current company after receiving your degree. They will most likely not be able to accomodate your salary requirements. When interviewing be sure to mention how you have real world work experience and worked hard to finishing your schooling. When I did interview people programmers. I looked for motivated and hard-working individuals with a personality that would fit. htwh,

Steve Medvid
&quot;IT Consultant & Web Master&quot;

http://www.saveourfarm.com

Chester County, PA Residents
Please Show Your Support...

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Good advice from everyone. I'd like to ask another question now; any advice on building the CV to reflect my situation? To review, I've basically become a sort of R&D department. I'm the only full-time programmer; we have 2 IS people who basically do a little bit of everything. I have designed and created (almost singlehandedly; my supervisor generally helps with the design) 1 complete application (probably about 2000 lines of code) and I'm working on another one. I managed to deploy the app to 7-10 users, and have been supporting it for 4 months now. I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: is &quot;more verbose&quot; better when it comes to this? If not, how would I write it to maximize its &quot;eye-catching&quot; effect?

Ben

&quot;If thine enemy offend thee, give his child a drum.&quot; - Anonymous

 

[CajunCenturion]

Unless you want to discuss how honest you want to be with your CV or resume (nobody ever lies on the resume, now do they?), then perhaps a better discussion of this topic, which is a good question, might better be served in forum654


Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[arlems]

Your pay should reflect your production. It doesn't matter how many sheepskins you got, what matters is how much you can produce in a day, week or month. That is whay is going to get you the dough.

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Cajun:

I'm looking for a balance between &quot;tooting my own horn&quot; and saying too much... I don't want to be dishonest, but I also don't want to be overlooked because I don't have the many years of experience.

arlem:

I realize that my abilities speak for themselves, but I wondered how it compares to others in the field. Since I have not finished my degree, I was sort of concerned that my current company may be taking advantage of my lack of degrees/certs to get more work out of me for less than the going rate. I love the work, and I'm good at it (if I do say so myself), but I don't want to be taken advantage of because I don't have the paperwork to back up my requests for appropriate compensation.

Ben

&quot;If thine enemy offend thee, give his child a drum.&quot; - Anonymous

 

[CajunCenturion]

Now arlem all you have to do is define &quot;Production&quot;.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[abds]

Go ahead and toot. If you don't, who will. When everyone exagerates, the one who is modest always gets lost in the crowd. The plain facts of what you're doing are very impressive. Start out by saying exactly what you said on 9/10, and then expound on your new project.
Lots of Luck.
Phil

We are drowning in data, but we are starving for information.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Be honest benlinkknilneb. Include on your resume that which you feel pertinent.

&quot;Tooting your own horn&quot; is to some degree, the purpose of a resume, and IMHO, boils down not to what you say about yourself, but how you say it.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[arlems]

Sure.

Production: 1. the activity of providing a product or service.

Product: a completed thing that has exchange value within or outside the activity. A product is a finished high quality service or article, in the hands of the being or group it serves, as an exchange for a valuable. In other words, it isn't a product at all unless it is exchanged. Even the individual has to put his service or article in the hands of some other staff member before it could be called a product. A product is exchange, exchange is product.

 

[CajunCenturion]

So arlen if you bust your tail to produce some really great software, but your sales people don't sell it, then you don't deserve to be paid, because you haven't produced anything.? No exchange no product. No product, no production. No production, no pay.?? Is that your thinking?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[benlinkknilneb]

I'd be in deep trouble then; my &quot;production&quot; was for the company's internal use only ;-)

Ben

&quot;If thine enemy offend thee, give his child a drum.&quot; - Anonymous

 

[CajunCenturion]

Just because your production was internal does not mean it was without value. I don't think that arlen was trying to say that, but rather that in order to considered a product or service, it had to provide value to someone even if that someone were inside the company.

My point was that projects get cancelled, as companies cut their losses, or market forces change. Priorities change and things get back-burnered, sometimes for good. To equate production with finality -- (&quot;A product is a finished high quality service or article&quot;) -- or that it must provide value as the result of an exchange, short-changes much high quality work that never comes to fruition as a product or service, and by that definition, would not be consider production. To me, that is not sufficienct grounds for withholding salary.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Sorry for the confusion Cajun; I was teasing. The ;-) was supposed to substitute for <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags. I agree; I think his point was that my pay scale would be related to whether I'm producing my best possible work (whether or not my project were cancelled).

Ben

&quot;If thine enemy offend thee, give his child a drum.&quot; - Anonymous