What 3d Accelerator ? 3

[kwunder]

I've just got Grand Prix 4 and I'm having a load of problems with the poor and slow, jumpy graphics, even when very few of the graphics options are selected. I have an AMD XP1800 wit 512MB RAM, so no probs there. Trouble is I think, my aging Voodoo 3500TV Grphics Accel card. I think it's only 16MB (if memory serves correctly) and I think it's time to upgrade. What is the best to go for in the <£120 bracket.

Regards
kwunder

 

[cdogg]

Hey Kwunder!!

Yeah, it appears that a 16MB DirectX 8.1 video card is the minimum requirement, while a 32MB card is highly recommended.

You should be able to get either a GeForce4 Ti4200 128MB or Geforce3 Ti500 64MB for around the same price. Go for the Ti4200 if it's within your price range. I'm not sure how much they are in the UK, but they're right around $125 OEM online here in the US.


Cheers, ~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[paparazi]

Kwunder,
Dabs.com do a &quot;Value&quot; 64mb geforce 4 4200Ti at £112, I think you will find most branded 64mb 4200Ti's around the £130 mark and the 128 versions another £15 on that, but they are worth it.
Yes you could go for a GF3 Ti500 or even an ATI 8500 but both are only slightly cheaper than the GF4 4200Ti and to be honest the £10-£15 differance is worth it. Martin Please let members know if there advice has helped any.

 

[mbasic]

The £69 GeForce3 Ti200 is also worth looking at (gives around 70+ percent of the GeForce4 Ti4600's performance under most circumstances, as are the 'Golden Sample' cards of various chipsets available at ebuyer (these are made so as to be overclocked with xtra large heatsinks).

A GeForce3Ti or 4Ti is nowadays essential, as anything less just ain't gonna cut the mustard under up & coming games (e.g. Doom III needs a GeForce3 for 30fps!).

I myself have a GeForce4 Ti4200, and it's an absolute corker.

I've put together a list of places that sell the GeForce3/4 cheapest, let me know if you would like it.

G

 

[kwunder]

Cdogg - Good to hear from ya. I think you're right about a 128MB card. I'll go for it I think.
All the best mate

Martin (paparazi) - Thanks for the pointer to dabs. I think you're right also about the &quot;little extra&quot; being worth it.
Cheers

mbasic - Please do send me that list. Look forward to seeing it

Thanks again all
kwunder

 

[mbasic]

kwunder, can you give me your email address so that I can forward details to you.

By the way, I'd consider the 64MB version again carefully.
By the time games need atleast a 128MB graphics card you're gonna be thinking of upgrading anyway, because by then the GeForce4 Ti4200 will be struggling, that's why I saved my money and bought the 64MB version with TV-out & DVI.

Also note..........
the 128MB versions are all based around the original specification GeForce4 Ti4200, and because of the gretaer memory size, they actually give slower memory banwidth - 7gigatexels p/s rather than the 8 of the 64MB version.
What this means is that you actually DO get slower performance on the 128MB version.
If you don't believe me check out the nVidia site.
So perhaps somewhat of a false economy, but then again if you can bare the comparatively small drop in performance then go for it!

Cheers,
G

 

[cdogg]

mbasic,
You might want to re-check your specs. The Geforce4 Ti4200 128MB DDR card has 8.0GB/sec bandwidth which is equal to the fastest Geforce3 Ti500. However, the &quot;fill rate&quot; and &quot;ops per second&quot; are actually better with the Geforce4.


GeForce3 Ti 500:
Fill Rate - 3.84 Billion AA Samples/Sec
Operations per Second - 960 Billion
Memory Bandwidth - 8.0GB/Sec

GeForce4 Ti 4200:
Fill Rate - 4 Billion AA Samples/Sec
Operations per Second - 1.03 Trillion
Memory Bandwidth - 8.0GB/Sec

Here are there links at Nvidia's site:

http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?PAGE=geforce4ti

http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?PAGE=geforce3

~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[cdogg]

mbasic,
Forgot to mention that memory bandwidth specs are &quot;theoretical&quot; and should be taken lightly with a grain of salt. The limits aren't ever reached in today's environment. Real-world benchmarks tell the real story.


Thanks kwunder! It's good to hear from you too!! G'luck in shopping...
~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[kwunder]

Thanks cdogg !!!

One thing........

Can you summarise as to which one I should go for ?

All the best
kwunder

 

[kwunder]

Just been to dabs.co.uk and it came up with these

http://www.dabs.com/products/prod-s...f&p=3d&lp=&up=&mc=&sc=&Refine.x=48&Refine.y=8

Are there any to avoid among these ?
What's the matter with the £60 Blaster model ? It has 64MB

I'll await you're advice

kwunder

 

[paparazi]

Kwunder, I think you have missed the point a little,
MX's are cut down versions of geforce GPU's like ALL MX's they don't offer anything like the performance of the FULL Ti's
The Geforce 4 4200Ti is the bargain of the Ti range because it has all the techneological advances but without the price tag of it's bigger brothers.
And yes the 64mb versions are slightly quicker than the 128 versions, this is by vertue of there faster memory modules but it has to be said the cards with the extra memory regain there benchmark advantage at higher resolutions. So if you play on a large screen at higher resolutions, better go 128 otherwise 64mb versions rule for the time being (untill games appear that take advantage of all that memory)
Martin Please let members know if there advice has helped any.

 

[kwunder]

Martin

Fogive my ignorance. I'm affraid I've lost touch with the hardware world, as I've never heard of a GPU, MX of Ti. They could be anything as far as I know. I do know enough to buy a good card though now thanks to help from yourself and cdogg

i think !

thanks again
kwunder

 

[cdogg]

The only thing wrong with that model is that it's a GeForce4 MX not a Ti. MX's don't have the programmable vertex shaders that the Ti's have. Also, the entire 3D architecture known as nfiniteFX II Engine which includes faster Pixel Shaders with Z-correct bump mapping, is only present in the Ti version. Basically, the MX is targeted for desktop/workstation applications. It's more like a &quot;suped-up&quot; Geforce2. Even a GeForce3 has more 3D power than the GeForce4 MX. One must wonder why Nvidia chose this misleading naming scheme.

If you want the best performance in the latest 3D games that use DirectX 8.1 technolgy, you've gotta go with the Ti over the MX.

You can read more about the nfiniteFX engine here:

http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=feature_nfinitefxii

Hope that helps clear any remaining doubt on the subject!! ~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[kwunder]

Oh my god !!!!!!!!!!

cdogg....you old **~#!!@

What the **** are Programmable vertex shaders ?????

Seriously, I've just looked at bestbuy.com and the Geforce4 ti 64MB is $169, the 128MB is N/A

I'm unsure about ordering from overseas so I need to find a UK supplier.

In a nutshell, should I go Geforce4 Ti 4200 64MB or GeForce4 Ti 4400 128MB ?

Thanks
Bryn

 

[cdogg]

LOL Sorry, I know I get carried away sometimes!!

Just know that newer games, like the upcoming Doom III and Unreal Tournament sequels, are going to benefit more if you have a GeForce3, 4 Ti, Radeon 8500, 9000, or 9700. Any other card is going to have to sacrifice detail to run at playable/comparable speeds.

Look for a GeForce Ti4200 128MB version. If the Ti4400 128MB is within your price range, then that'll work too! I agree you'd be better off buying from someone there in the UK to save on shipping.


If you're interested, here are a few links about the newer technology:

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q1/010227/index.html

http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q2/020409/index.html

~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[paparazi]

Kwunder, if you are in the UK???? then use my mate at :

http://www.a-dcomputers.co.uk

He has the Leadtek Winfast A250 LE TD which is a
Geforce 4 4200 Ti (note* not MX) 128mb version
He has it for £139.83 but I think there is post ontop of this.
The Leadtek is the only 4200Ti graphics card that I know of, that has heatsinks (coolers) on the memory modules making it a good overclocking card but that aside I really rate this brand as a quality make.
They also sell Gainward Golden sample Geforce 4 4200Ti 128mb, which cost a little more but have something of a reputation amongst hardcore gamers as being the fastest out there. Martin Please let members know if there advice has helped any.

 

[mbasic]

Hi Bryn
Are you Welsh mate, as I am?
Did you see the Wales v Italy footie game.....
glorious win!

Anyway, Martin's absolutely spot on, and Cdogg is talking a lot of sense as regards the MX chips.

----------------------------------
RE: The GeForce4 MX Series
============================
The lowdown is:
The GeForce MX chipsets are excellent all-round BUDGET chips offering medium-range performance and SOME of the features of their fully featured relatives.
However, as with the GeForce2MX which gave around GeForce256 SDR (original GeForce) performance, the GeForce4MX does not come close to the GeForce4 Ti's & lacks many of the advanced features which are going to become increasingly important in the near future. I.e. the repercussions of this are that at the moment you will see the GeForce4MX give at best close to GeForce3 Ti200 performance under some games (although more typically around GeForce2 Ultra/Pro or Ti performance, which are basically souped up full GeForce2 GTS's), but as games start to take advantage of the GeForce3 & 4 advanced features (such as DirectX 8.1 support, pixel & vertex shader, programmable architecture) as is promissed in Doom III, we shall see these cards pull away from the GeForce4MX series.
Essentially, the GeForce4MX is an update to the GeForce2MX series, but with performance & some features sufficient so as to label it as a budget class GeForce4.
All this said, they are great cards, but not for the serious gamer, and do not offer a sensible long term deliverance.
The GeForce4MX comes in the following flavours:

GeForce4 420MX - the entry level card, offering around GeForce2 GTS performance, also available as the fastest PCI card for older computers.

GeForce4 440MX - the mainstream card available in 64MB & 128MB versions (now also supporting AGPx8), with around GeForce2 Ultra performance.

GeForce4 460MX - the performance-budget option offering close to GeForce3 Ti200 performance in some tests (although the GeForce3 Ti200 leaves it behind in newer games).

For these you can expect to pay around £45 for the lowest, and upto £100 for the 128MB version of the GeForce 460MX.
----------------------------------

----------------------------------
RE: The GeForce3/4 Ti Series
==============================
Currently there are no games to fully put the Ti series through its paces, so it's difficuilt to judge where it will be in a few years time, particularly with the GeForce5 (NV30 & NV35) on the horizon, claiming a theoretical double GeForce4 Ti performance.
Whether you decided on the budget GeForce3 the Ti200, or right upto the GeForce4 Ti4600, there isn't a vast difference between them in terms of performance & they share much the same features. However, the GeForce4's will undoubtably start to pull ahead somewhat when next generation games such as Doom III are released.
Both the GeForce3 and 4Ti series offer a good medium-long term investment, and apart from the Ti4400 and Ti4600 (which are too expensive for only a marginal speed increase over the Ti4200, although maybee worth it if you can afford the xtra) are good vaue for money.
I wouldn't be put off the GeForce3 series on the basis of being supposed 'previous-generation'. In truth, the GeForce4 series is basically only an slight update to the GeForce3 series and have much more in common than previous GeForce architectures (for example, the GeForce3 is leagues ahead of the previous GeForce2 series in terms of architecture). The key things are that the GeForce3 series (as used in a customised version in the Microsoft XBox) have those key features as stated by Martin & Cdogg, so they too are worth a look in.
Here's a summary of the different configurations available:

GeForce3 Ti200 - the budget GeForce3 with around 80% performance of it's higher-clocked relative the Ti500, available in both 64MB & 128MB configurations (aprox. £70)

GeForce3 (original) - generaly offering between GeForce3 Ti200 & Ti500 performance, although the Ti200 moves slightly ahead in some benchmarks because of a newer & slightly improved architecture, also available in 64MB & 128MB versiona (aprox. £100)

GeForce3 Ti500 - the powerhous of the GeForce3 series, comparable to the GeFOrce4Ti series & the custom nVidia chip of the XBox, although pretty expensive (aprox. £110)

GeForce4 Ti4200 - as stated previously, available in both 64MB & 128MB versions with the 64MB version performing better throughout, although as Martin has stated, once we see games that can take advantage of massives textures & require this amount of video RAM particularly at higher resolutions then you should see the 128MB version pull slightly ahead although not likely by a sizeable margin, surely the Ti4200 must offer the best overal value for money at the moment of any of the GeForce series which is why they're seling like hot-cakes, the 64MB version is available for around £105, while the 128MB version for £120. The performance difference is probably at most 10% between the two versions in favour of the 64MB version, although in most circumstances the difference is likely to be neglegable because it is the architecture which offers the main performance benefits. It's now also available in an AGPx8 configuration. Like I've already said, I wouldn't discount the GeForce4 Ti4200 64MB on the basis of memory size alone, until recently I had a GeForce 256 SDR 32MB (original) and it is only now that some games require a minimum of 32MB (most games still only need 16MB, and some 3D-shooters still only need a 8MB card). OK, maybee in a year & a half's time you wont be able to run the latest game at 1600x1200 resolution without a 128MB card, but what you have to realise is that by this time, we will probably be looking at a GeForce6 chipset, and anyway, will you have the money neccessary to upgrade to a computer powerful enough to cope with these resolutions anyway (CPU, memory architecture etc), basically the goal posts shift all the time!
----------------------------------

----------------------------------
RE: Others to Consider
==============================
These are also worth considering (although personally I prefer GeForce-based cards, particularly as games like Doom III have been written to be optimised for GeForce cards):

SIS Xabre 400 Pro - at around £55, this baby offers many of the features only found on the GeForce3 and higher chipsets such as shaders & DirectX 8+ support including AGPx8. General performance places this around GeForce4 MX460/GeForce3 Ti200 performance. Also available ar the Xabre 200 Lite & Xabre 600 (not yet released in UK) which offer entry-level & medium-level performance, respectively.

ATI Radeon 9000 Pro - simply the fastest card available in its price range with around GeForce3 Ti200 performance.

ATI Radeon 7500 - similar performance to the above, also available as a lite version.

ATI Radeon 8500 - close to GeForce4 Ti4200 or GeForce3 Ti500 performance & bristling with features & available as 64MB & 128MB versions, starting at around £120.

ATI Radeon 9700 - THE fastest card and GeForce4Ti killer, although at a shockingly high price - £350+ !

Matrox Parhelia - stunning image quality, great features & superb anti-aliasing performance, although general performance places it only around the GeForce3 Ti200, and it costs a bomb, more a business-graphics professional's card than a gamer's or cost concious option!

Trident T3 - at around £90 and due for release soon, this card offers close to Ti4200 performance including many of its features & should revolutionise the budget-medium range market. Also available in T2 & T1 versions, at around £60 & £45 respectively (look out for these!).

GeForce2 Ultra/Pro & Ti - still great budget options offering close to GeForce4 MX440 performance, if you want a temporary solution for current & immediate games then you could do much worse than one of these, they still come up with the goods in games like UT2003 demo (the most demanding game as yet) at medium resolution & high detail settings. From £45 upto £85 depending on configuration.

On the horizon........ The fabled GeForce5 (NV30 & NV35) and 3DLabs P10 still haven't materialised but promise to offers new unpresedented levels of performance, although expect to pay handsomly for the priveladge of using them.
----------------------------------

WOW.......this must be the longest post I've ever written, it's taken me more than an hour!
Anyway, hope that it helps.
Like I say Bryn....
If you give me your email address or tell me how I can contact you I'll send you a list that i made of where you can find the best buys as regards the GeForce3/4 chipsets.
I would post them on here, although I don't want to get chucked off as were not supposed to advertise or sell things on here.

All the best with your difficuilt purchasing decision, let me know if you want to know anything else.

By the way, for refernce, here are my system specs (custom built more than 2 years ago, apart from the recently added GeForce4 Ti4200):

AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1GHz
448MB PC133 RAM
ASUS A7V (VIA KT133 chipset)
Galaxy GeForce4 Ti4200 64MB DDR - TV DVI
Creative SoundBlaster Live! Player
WindowsXP Home + Windows98 dual-boot

If you're wondering what sort of performance I get from the above, then I can tell you that I run UT2003 demo at 1600x1200 32-bit at maximum audio & video settings with around 60fps, giving smooth gameplay, although when Doom III is finally released, I expect my slow processor to serve as a serious bottleneck in terms of performance, as UT2003 doesn't fully take advantage if current high-end technology.

Anyway, all the best,
G
(mbasic)

 

[cdogg]

WOW.......this must be the longest post I've ever written, it's taken me more than an hour!


....And it's taken me almost an hour to read!!

Just kidding! Definitely some good comparisons and misc info!! ~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[mbasic]

Thanx cdogg
I know it's a bit long winded, sorry about that.

 

[kwunder]

Well.
Well well
Well well well !!!!!!!


mbasic.....What can I say
Other than
1) No, I'm not Welsh, though I do stay in my holiday home in Snowdonia quite often.
2) How are your fingers after all that typing ?

I think I'm clear now. That is I'm going for a GeForce (3 or 4) Ti with 128MB

Correct ?????
Only thing is, the water pump has just gone on my car so I have to wait for a while now to save again !

email me at likelylads@btopenworld.com

cdogg
Thanks for narrowing it down !

Thanks guys
Bryn