Two "American" Language Books

I haven't had a chance to read these books. I was working late one night and listened to a commentary about them. The first book, Cement in the Cementary, isn't out yet, or at least, I haven't found it.

The second one is out and has it's own web site.SPELLING DEAREST:The Down and Dirty, Nitty-Gritty History of English Spelling at

http://www.spellingdearest.com

Here a quote from the second book.

To add to this chaos, the spelling in most regions, in this and the next period, took on a distinct French flavor. What this means is that an immense number of words or parts of words were spelled like the French would spell them in their language. These are the same French who didn't even sound their words the way we would sound them if they were ours. In fact, it's the same French who sometimes didn't even sound their words at all. They just shrugged their shoulders or waved their hands and that was considered to be a whole sentence. With this in mind, it should come as no surprise that many of the words or parts of words that the French gave us were riddled with silent letters. Obviously, these were the bits that were supposed to be mimed.

James P. Cottingham
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[Trevoke]

I'm going to guess that it's supposed to be funny.. ?
As someone who rather enjoys words (spelling, grammar, etymology, etc), and someone who is French, that quote leaves me with a bad aftertaste.
After looking at the website, the book is satirical, so it's likely that if it had been ANY quote but one where the French are, again, made fun of, I may have gotten a better impression of it.

Still, I don't see, at all, what this paragraph is getting at. It's .. A bad thing that words are spelt the way they are in the original language?

-Haben sie fosforos?
-No tiengo caballero, but I have un briquet.

 

[Toshilap]

French sometimes didn't even sound their words at all?
And I took it by mistake for "I hate Americans" attitude I in Paris last April... I have to read whole book (and help me G_d)

My second favorite was 'who didn't even sound their words the way we would sound them if they were ours'

I tried to reverse it and I got 'If these words were ours we would sound them differently then those who sound them unlike us' - is this messier then original? Ok, I go home.

I finally got it all together and forgot where I put it.

 

[stackdump]

I'm currently re-learning French (since I've forgotten a huge amount of it and I'm travelling there regularly).

If Waldman is speculating that the french do not intonate much of their written word then Waldman needs to get an education. The french language is very elegant and the spelling of many words does of course suggest that many letters are not sounded, but ONLY if you read them as if they were English words and by ignoring the semantics of the language. The spelling and punctuation indicate forms of pronunication not found in English. So it's no great revelation that french words absorbed into the English language appear to have surplus letters.

Since English is a combination of words from many languages (only 16% of English words are truly English), the spelling is inevitably going to be riddled with inconsistencies. A more interesting book IMHO would be one that covers the origins of words that became part of the English language.

 

[grande]

What are some of these words that he's talking about? I can only think of a few with silent letters that are (I think) French-derived (Ballet, Buffet, etc).

What is IMHO?

-------------------------
Just call me Captain Awesome.

 

[TheRambler]

Words of French origin have entered English and other languages. Many of those words in turn originate from Latin, and sometimes from Greek. It is via French that many Latin words have come to the English language. Most of the French vocabulary now appearing in English was imported over the centuries following the Norman Conquest of 1066, when England came under the administration of Norman-speaking peoples. According to different sources, between one third to two thirds of all English words have a French origin. This suggests that at least 30,000 words should appear in this list.

List of English words of French origin

 

[KenCunningham]

IMHO - In My Honest Opinion.

 

[strongm]

I believe the 'H' is Humble

 

[KenCunningham]

You're probably right, please accept my most 'umble apologies:

"There are people enough to tread upon me in my lowly state, without my doing outrage to their feelings by possessing learning. Learning ain't for me. A person like myself had better not aspire. If he is to get on in life, he must get on 'umbly, Master Copperfield!" - Uriah Heep

 

[Toshilap]

So before English got filled with French words it was only 16% filled? It was probably the shortest lahguage on Earth then...

I finally got it all together and forgot where I put it.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> So before English got filled with French words it was only 16% filled? It was probably the shortest lahguage on Earth then...
Actually, the 16% represents the volume of Old English words that have survived and are still in use in today's modern English. In other words, only 16% of what was Old English is still in use today. French has only been one of many several foreign language sources. You'll find considerable German and Roman roots into today's English words as well.

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[stackdump]

What are some of these words that he's talking about? I can only think of a few with silent letters that are (I think) French-derived (Ballet, Buffet, etc).

Typically any words ending in -et, -as or -at (such as gourmet, fracas and baccarat). -ix is probably another case but I can only think of one example (Grand Prix).

I dont know of any french words where a letter is truly silent in that it does not influence the manner in which the word is spoken.

 

[Toshilap]

I thought Latin is closer to English then any other language. Wrong? And based on amount of words from Latin that still in use I am surprised by 16%...

I finally got it all together and forgot where I put it.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I thought Latin is closer to English then any other language
What do you mean by 'closer'?

To understand why it's only 16%, you have to understand British history. As a language, English got its roots in the 500-600 CE time frame with Celtic, Dutch, and predominately Anglo-Saxon influence. However, in 1066, the Norman invasion changed all that. Not only did the Normans conquer Britain, they in many ways, conquered the language as well, transforming not only the vocabulary, but grammar and construction as well. That's why only about 16% of Old English survives today.

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[stackdump]

The Oxford English Dictionary did a survey of 80,000 common words and concluded the following proportions with respect to their origin;

French, including Old French and early Anglo-French: 28.3%
Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
Old and Middle English, Old Norse, and Dutch: 25%
Greek: 5.32%
No etymology given: 4.03%
Derived from proper names: 3.28%
All other languages contributed less than 1%

The proportion being Old/Middle English is 16%.

For a large selection of words in common use in English that were borrowed from other languages, see

http://www.krysstal.com/borrow.html

 

[SilentAiche]

[blue]IM(H)O[/blue] = in my 'umble opinion.

Tim, as far as you know...

[blue]______________________________________________________________
I love logging onto Tek-Tips. It's always so exciting to see what the hell I
said yesterday. [/blue]

 

[Toshilap]

French, including Old French and early Anglo-French: 28.3%
Is Anglo part counts for 14.15 1/2 % as Anglo? English is Anglo isn't it?
Old and Middle English, Old Norse, and Dutch: 25%
Old and Middle English 2/4 of 25 is another 12%, not?
No etymology given: 4.03%

The proportion being Old/Middle English is 26% not 16%.

What do I know anyway?


I finally got it all together and forgot where I put it.

 

[CajunCenturion]

As long as we're playing dueling sources:
From A (Very) Brief History of the English Language

The majority of words in modern English come from foreign, not Old English roots. In fact, only about one sixth of the known Old English words have descendants surviving today.

Last time I checked, 1/6 = 16.6667%


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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[tgreer]

An interesting show on the topic of "gold" referred to South African gold-miners who have developed their own language, which they use only in the mines. It has a vocabularly of 2,000 words, 500 of which are swears and curses.



Thomas D. Greer

http://www.tgreer.com

 

[2ffat]

First off, I had no intention of offending anyone. Yes, this book is both factual and satircal in nature. I suspect the new book will be, too.

The interview I listened to pointed out some of the items mentioned here. It seems whomever invaded England brought their language and mixed it into the English language, Normans, Vikings, Romans, French, etc. That is why English is so hard to learn, esp. spelling.


James P. Cottingham
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^{I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229!}