toning cat5e cables 4

[jeffmoss26]

Hi Guys
I am working on terminating 30 or so cables in my school. I did not install the cable, I am just putting the jacks on and terminating to a patch panel. Naturally, the guy who installed the cables did not label them. This is in a computer lab, using large metal Wiremold. Anyway, I am having trouble toning out the cables. I plugged my toner into the first jack, and could hear tone on almost all the cables. (a pretty faint sound). However, I didn't hear the tone any louder on any specific cable, making it almost impossible for me to know which cable is which. Short of ripping everything out and labeling and running new cables (really not an option), how can I get better tone through the cables so I can identify them? I made myself an adapter with an RJ45 plug and some cable, twisted the white wires and colored wires into 2 groups and then clipped the toner on.

Any help is appreciated,
Thanks
Jeff

jeff moss

 

[hbiss]

Obviously you have not been around enough...

Not unless over 35 years isn't a long time. Back then with the old 1A2 key systems, yes you could blow a fuse if you shorted some pairs, notably those for LG&L if the lamps were lit. (As for Executone, enough said.) You learned to probe carefully and hold your probe perpendicular to the clips instead of just running it down at an angle.

I haven't had a problem with metal tips in 35 years!

If you are looking for a pair on a block you usually can pick up the tone just by waving the probe above the clips (assuming you are using a decent toner and probe) and get a good idea where to start.

The big problem is CAT5 and above with its tight twists. (Did I ever mention how I despise CAT5?) If it is punched down on a block you should have no problem finding pairs. It's only locating cables in a bundle that poses problems. As I said above there are all kinds of toners and probes and some will work for this where others are useless. Metal tips excell here and there is no danger of shorting anything out from the outside of the cable!

When I install wiring I never label anything. Labels get damaged or removed during installation. I find them to be a big waste of time. Instead I tone each run out after the jacks are installed as they are being terminated on the cross connect blocks or patch panels. 2 men, Nextel's or radios, quick and easy, and you often get an indication if there is a problem with the run before it gets punched down.

Now, if I had to strip the ends of each cable to find the toner I would still be on the job and not here writing this!

-Hal

 

[skip555]

a trick I have used since the pre-plastic tip probe days is to hold the probe in one hand with the tip between your thumb an forefinger

then run a finger of the other hand down the 66 block and you will pick up the tone without a chance of shorting anything

you can lick the fingers first for a little better continuity if you like

it wasnt just executone , the early tie systems would pop a fuse if you just looked at them wrong the early intertel , and necs had fuses you could blow pretty easy also

 

[Sphoneman]

hbiss,

Okay you & I have been around.

The younger ones have not- and WILL cause damage. I don't agree with the advise you are giving.

They wouldn't know what to do with a 1A2 10 or 20 button set (I wouldn't want to even quess what they would do with a diode). My men didn't even know what an AMP Tool was & couldn't believe we made them in the field. Let alone when I showed them how we used to cure & polish fiber connectors back in the 80's.

The newer generation think they are REAL technicians because they do CAT5 & 6.

As for your method of cabling, I would fire any of my men if they had to tone more than 1 or 2 cables on a 100+ station job. I pay them well to do their job correctly, the first time.





Steve
tele-dataservices.com

 

[hbiss]

As for your method of cabling, I would fire any of my men if they had to tone more than 1 or 2 cables on a 100+ station job. I pay them well to do their job correctly, the first time.

It's a matter of preference whether to tag or tone and it has been debated at length in (probably) this and other forums with camps being equally divided. Both methods have their pros and cons and neither should be considered correct or incorrect since either can work well if that's the way you are used to working.

Personally I find that labeling (whatever form that may take) is more time consuming than toning. With another man it only takes me a few seconds to identify. If you only send one man out on a job however, I can see where labeling might work better.

If whoever is working for me has another way of doing things that's fine with me as long as the job gets done properly. I would rather them take longer to do the job right than have to go back because of problems.

-Hal

 

[wires]

The problem I have with most jobs where a toner was used to ID the cables is that the wiring closet end has no order to the terminations. Ideally the terminations should be in room number (or other logical) order.

Most of the time it seems to me that toning was only done to label the wiring closet end AFTER everything was terminated.

To me it is usually easier to label the cables when they are pulled. You only need to put temporary labels on the wiring closet end since that is where the confusing mass of cables are.

 

[cwc3]

66 blocks who still installs those?i use all 110 for at least 3 years!

 

[TouchToneTommy]

If you're going to not label the cables when pulling, it makes more sense to label the closet end first, and then mark the jacks to match. That way the patch panels or blocks are in a logical, numerical order. Make a small spreadsheet that lists the jack number vs. the room number, then sort by room number. Now the cables are easy to find in the closet, and you know which jacks can be found in which room.

 

[wires]

Sorry TouchToneTommy but "...label the closet end first, and then mark the jacks to match." ends up being just as big a mess as the other way around. There should be a logical relationship between jacks, room numbers and patch panel positions.

Unless I am not understanding you would end up with jack 12 in room 110 located between jack 5 in room 109 and jack 48 in room 111. I can hardly see an advantage.

If you are going to make a number mess far better to do it in the closet where it will be less apparent to the customer that you were not organized.

Labeling the wiring closet ends when you pull the wires takes less than a minute per pull. How hard is that?

 

[daronwilson]

Not unless over 35 years isn't a long time. Back then with the old 1A2 key systems, yes you could blow a fuse if you shorted some pairs, notably those for LG&L if the lamps were lit. (As for Executone, enough said.) You learned to probe carefully and hold your probe perpendicular to the clips instead of just running it down at an angle.

I too started out with a metal tip inductive tracer, took a just few fuses to realize that it was not the best method. First fix was a piece of heat shrink over the tip, second was a plastic tip for it. I've not got 35 years experience, only about 20, but it only took me about two days to realize sticking a conductive shorting bar in to live circuits to find a tone was not necessary.

The big problem is CAT5 and above with its tight twists. (Did I ever mention how I despise CAT5?)

Uh...we refer to that 'problem' as 'progress' in the ability of the cabling infrastructure to support more bandwidth. As with many advances, one must learn to embrace the new technology and take advantage of it's features. 'Despising' the technology is counter productive and just plain wasteful. We don't run any Cat3 any more, it's not worth it, Cat5 just isn't that hard to terminate if you know how.

Metal tips excell here and there is no danger of shorting anything out from the outside of the cable!

While they are more conductive, they simply aren't a requirement to do the work. Rarely do we do any toning of new cabling, if properly labeled with numbers written down on the drawing as we pull, there just is no reason to do so. If it is required, jambing the tracer into the end of the wire jacket does quite well even with Cat6.

When I install wiring I never label anything. Labels get damaged or removed during installation. I find them to be a big waste of time. Instead I tone each run out after the jacks are installed as they are being terminated on the cross connect blocks or patch panels. 2 men, Nextel's or radios, quick and easy, and you often get an indication if there is a problem with the run before it gets punched down.

To each his own I'm sure, I've had 'more experienced' employees do the same for the short time they worked for me. I prefer to have the cable runs labeled on the pull, write the numbers on the print as we go, then route them into the rack appropriately in order as we get things into place in the telecom room. Once that wire is pulled into the workstation outlet, we may have a crew triming that out right behind them and putting labels on the faceplate. Having a 'planned' layout and wires labeled as they are pulled allows the workstation outlet to be trimmed and labeled as we go, and allows the rack to be terminated as we go as well if needed. It seems like a waste of time to not know which wire goes where, as we can often be pulling wire, terminating work stations, and punching down at the rack simultaneously.

More than one way to do a job, I personally enjoy learning different methods. Often I sell my project based on the shortcomings of my competitors, so it helps to know what others are doing.

Good Luck!

Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron at wilson dot org

 

[TouchToneTommy]

Wires - I didn't say that running the cables un-labeled was the best way to do it; remember that Jeff Moss is simply dealing with a situation where the cable is already in place and not labeled.

It makes NO sense to have your patch panel ports, or terminations on the blocks, be in non-sequencial random order. How long are you going to stare at the panels looking for the correct port to patch into? That's why I suggested making a spreadsheet of room numbers and jack numbers, then sorting by room number.

Of of curosity, how would you handle this: Customer needs more drops installed after the fact. You already have everything terminated in order of room number and jack number. That is, something like 110-1, 110-2, 110-3, 111-1, 111-2, 111-3, etc. Now you need to add jacks 4, 5, and 6 for room 110, where are they going to end up? Not next to jacks 1, 2, and 3, but after the current last port. So the sequence at the patch panels is all shot to hell. In a large installation with a lot of add ons over the years, it gets to be a real mess. It's almost better to just have the patch panels go from 1 in the upper left corner to whatever the highest number is in the lower right corner, and keep a cross reference of what room contains which jack number.

 

[cwc3]

there is no reason for your probe to make contact with
the blocks @ all!

 

[smegecki]

You guys are making a mountian out of a mole hill.

Labeling the cables upfront is the only way to go. Use a nice new sharpy and lable the cable 3 times approx every 12 inches.If you are doing a job with 200 plus cables or 1000's, do you really want to be toning that many cables? The only time toning is somewhat acceptable is on small installs 24 cables or less. Or identifying mislabled cables.IMO.

As for toning of cables I started with a plastic probe and switched to metal once I got the feel for it. The metal tip pics up the induced tone much better. And yes I have messed with a little 1a2 and some key systems that blow a fuse if shorted. I work on avaya g3 and aspect acd now that dont have this problem.

There are lots of good tips in this thread..not labeling the cables is not one of them...I've ranted enough...

 

[hbiss]

It makes NO sense to have your patch panel ports, or terminations on the blocks, be in non-sequencial random order.

I agree and that's not what I'm saying at all.

Cable is run from the closet to each location. Jacks are then installed and labeled per drawings or whatever numbering scheme you want to use. As cables are terminated in the closet they are identified with a toner plugged into the jacks. Cables are then terminated in sequential order and labeled on the blocks or patch panels.

To me this makes wiring simpler because you can break any cable out of the bundle as you go rather than having to look for specific numbers at each location and making sure they go to the right jack. You don't even need a drawing at this point- just have to know where the jacks are.

With this method you don't have to worry if both ends of the cable were marked correctly with the same number, that you have a fine point Sharpie that still has a fine point, that the person marked them legibly or that somebody didn't cut the writing off before the cables are terminated because they were hanging all over the floor and they were trying to make everything neat. Identifying cables either by toning or labling takes time.

Now I will admit that we don't do large jobs like some of you- 40 to 50 runs is about it. Maybe with large jobs this doesn't make sense. Also a large percentage of our work is in existing spaces, residential and residential that has been made into commercial meaning sheetrock or old plaster walls and ceilings- no hung ceiling. A run might be fished through walls, ceilings or wherever, run in raceway or both. Having to keep track of cable numbers at this point is just one more thing to have to worry about. It's much easier to run the cables first then determine what went where at the termination stage.

-Hal

 

[jeffmoss26]

Wow, a lot of interesting comments. I appreciate all the help.
Thanks again
Jeff

jeff moss

 

[DTSMAN]

We use to label cables first, but we too found it faster to tone. We pull all our cable first and then start doing the jacks, labeling them the way we do. Only after that do we go to the wiring closet and start toning and punching in the order we want them on the punch-down.

 

[Trotski]

using tone to ID your cables work well if your only doing a few drops but if its a large job I find that marking a number on each cable with a permanent marker and keeping a reference on a floor plan is much faster

 

[BagsNYC]

Toning after the fact is a waste of time. Label cable end and reel. End of story..

 

[naturl]

I feel your pain Guy in the first post! Been there, done that, got my T-shirt dirty. A lot of good tips here. Has anyone tried yet the new Fluke Inteli-Tone? A digital toner/probe/wire mapper. It claims being digital it won't get lost in bundles-has a strength meter. Nor will it get lost by an active switch, you can locate wires behind walls. I think I want one -Any comments?

For the rest of you;
What happened to just marking and mapping the pull groups? Then, (after painting is done), methodicly terminate the rooms (groups); tone one, punch the patch port and test -Next... Of course document and label per 606 requirments or some such...

Why is there never a phone in the phone closet?