The Sassor worm 1

[sleipnir214]

The author of the original Sassor worm apparently claims to have released it to help his mother's PC repair business.

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-5209099.html?tag=header.newsfeed

My question is:

Do computer technology curricula in your area require computer ethics training, and do you think it would have kept this kid on the straight and narrow?





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[EBGreen]

No training can force a person to do the right thing. Ethics training in this case would have only mattered if the virus writer were confused over the definition of right and wrong and he had a proclivity for right in the first place.

[blue]"Well, once again my friend, we find that science is a two headed beast. One head is nice, it gives us aspirin and other modern conveniences,...but the other head of science is BAD! Oh, beware the other head of science, Arthur; it bites!!" - The Tick[/blue]

 

[sleipnir214]

TomThumbKP:
I agree that no training can force someone to do the right thing. I will happily congratulate any person who admits in my person to having released a virus into the wild by shaking him warmly by the throat.

But in the words of the infamous Dorothy Parker, "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think." We're talking about one of those "quiet kids" who lives in a small town and who may never have had his deontic heirarchy juggled by being forced to look at the larger picture.





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[BabyJeffy]

When I was studying CompSci in New Zealand during the late 80s, we had no specific course content that covered Ethics training.

We had a bullet-point list of activites that could get us "disciplined" (including expulsion) and these included all the usual suspects like unauthorised access (and attempts to access) as well as malicious computer use.

Those in our course were aware of the rules (they were part of the student guidebook/calendar as I recall)... and they formed the basis of what was understood to be "right" or "wrong" within that environment.

Given that the Sasser suspect is pre-university, he may very well never have considered the ethical position he was taking. The reported desire to "help out his mother's business" may have been a genuine attempt to "do the right thing" (in his mind).

If he had a responsible computer teacher who was empowered to share the ethics of computer use to such a young audience, then I believe there is a chance that it may have prevented/altered the end result.

What is the typical makeup of a computer coder? We are all different... but at what age do we move from "attention seeking youth" to "aware adult"? At that age I was more interested in "peer approval" than in "right or wrong".

I'd be interested to hear how things have changed... and whether anyone has experienced this kind of "ethics discourse" at pre-university level.

Cheers,
Jeff

 

[chiph]

There's a reason they're called "script kiddies".

They download a tool that sounds way-cool, run it, and don't realize the full implications of what they've done (they *are* just a kid).

Is he still guilty? Oh yes. But his youth should be factored in when a punishment is determined.

Chip H.


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[dkediger]

I'm not so sure about the "innocence of youth" angle though. The article also mentions this guy might be responsible for NetSky as well as Sasser.

 

[EBGreen]

Plus I would say that since computer repair is his mother's business and he intended to create more business for her, then he was fully cognizant that his actions would harm others.

[blue]"Well, once again my friend, we find that science is a two headed beast. One head is nice, it gives us aspirin and other modern conveniences,...but the other head of science is BAD! Oh, beware the other head of science, Arthur; it bites!!" - The Tick[/blue]

 

[sleipnir214]

I work for a U.S. public school system. I got curious about the answer to BabyJeffy's question about ethics training at the pre-college level.

The answer to my question from my boss (formerly a high school science teacher) was, "There is no specific curriculum on ethics, although it is included in the computer science courses. Not that it would do any good."

When I asked why it wouldn't do any good, the answer was, "Because students in high school are stupid. They all think they're invincible and indestructible and are seemingly incapable of seeing past their own instant gratification. If you try to point out any larger consequences of their actions, their eyes glaze over. They know it's not right to shoot and kill other people, but Columbine still happened."



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[bluedragon2]

Out of the entire article, I was most concered with the last paragraph:

Despite the damage to millions of computers, one leading German newspaper said in a page one commentary on Monday there was a strange sense of national pride that a German student had outwitted the world's best computer experts.

"Many of the (German) journalists who traveled to the province could not help but harbor clandestine admiration for the effectiveness if the worm," Die Welt daily wrote.

O.K., the German paper just unleashed a challange to other country's kids to out perform their own.



[Blue]Blue[/Blue] [Dragon]

If I wasn't Blue, I would just be a Dragon...

 

[CajunCenturion]

The author of that column suffers from the same short-sightedness as the student.

... incapable of seeing past their own instant gratification.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[CajunCenturion]

On a related note: Sasser Variant. Pay particular attention to the last two paragraphs.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[dkediger]

Yep - I read something similar not too long ago. Analysts were seeing insults being traded in the virus code between the Bagle and NetSky groups.

 

[gbaughma]

Here I go again... tossing a couple of pennies into the mix.

I was reading the report of the arrest on MSNBC this morning, and how they stated it *could be* up to a 5 year prison term.

We need to send a message to virus writers, as well as "script kiddies". I mean, if the same kid/person pulled a business scam and netted several million dollars, they'd get all kinds of trouble. But for letting loose a virus that causes that kind of damage, they get a slap on the wrist. I think there's probably a contest going on between virus writers to see who can make it to Trend Micro's "worst threat" category. I say **ENOUGH!**. The laws need to be stricter, and the punishments COMPLETE, to send a message that this will NO LONGER BE TOLERATED. (Of course, I also think that it would be poetic justice if something happened to Bill Gates, and he ended up on a life support machine that ran on Windows 95... give whole new meaning to the "blue screen of death"... but I digress.)

I have spent more hours battling stupid viruses, trying to keep up with the latest patches from Micro$oft because of buggy software and security holes... it's making me nuts. And when they finally CATCH one of the punks making ALL OF OUR LIVES miserable, the maximum punishment is 5 years??? He's cost all of us more than 5 years in man-hours REMOVING the viruses he wrote! ARRRRGH!

I think we need to develop a ZERO TOLERANCE law for virus writers. And as far as backdoors and such are concerned, if they can figure out what IP address keycatchers are sending your credit card information to, why don't they go bust them as well???

See, the problem is that computer laws for doing stuff like this aren't strict enough. Now, if they hit them with 150,000 accounts of electronic breaking and entering, THEN we'd see a little justice done.

Anyway... done ranting... just tired of fighting viruses.

--Greg

 

[CajunCenturion]

That sounds good in theory, gbaughma, but easier said than done.

I think we need to develop a ZERO TOLERANCE law for virus writers

Under whose legal jurisdiction?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[OhioBill]

I don't believe any courses in ethics, computer or otherwise, are being offered this year. Next year isn't looking good either.

I believe it would be a tremendous help if classes in ethics, morality and empathy were mandatory for public school systems, but given Sleipnir214's quote from her boss, I don't know who you'd get to teach it.

High School students aren't stupid. They're outspoken, rebellious and will behave badly from time to time, but stupid? No. Any ethics training they might have comes incidently. Correct that and there will be less crime.

 

[edfair]

Saw some recent research that indicated that there is a development problem with the teen-aged brain. That the portion leading to risk-taking behaviour is growing faster than the risk-avoidance portion. Leads to all sorts of stupid behaviour.
Seems to me that the only solution is to lock 'em up from roughly 16 to 25, at which point the parts of the brain should have equalized.
26 hours a week of public service for a year might be of some deterrent effect if it were known and enforced.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[rosieb]

gbaughma

Part of the problem with taking legal action is that when you put the case in front of a jury, the chances are that most of them can barely turn on a PC. It's like major fraud cases, the evidence is often going to be too technical for the jury to understand - "reasonable doubt" can be equated with "confusing the jury".

Also, what's he done? He's temporarily "broken" a few computers. Not a major crime in many people's eyes, just a "prank".

(Of course, if a couple of planes fell out of the sky as a result, it might be different. Not that I'm hoping for such, but a couple of near-misses might help focus minds on the potential.)

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[CajunCenturion]

With regard to ethics training, why should be place that burden on the Public School System. That should be a parental responsibility, and one easy way to help fulfull that role is through whatever Church you feel comfortable with.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[EBGreen]

But, saying it is the role of parents who themselves have no formal ethics training is akin to saying the parents should teach calculus. I wouldn't have wanted my Dad teaching me calculus regardless of how well he can use it. IMO there is a difference between using a concept and conveying it to another. If Society determines that formal ethics training is of value, then Society should bear the burden. I'm not saying let the parents off the hook. Just that they are not always the best first choice.

[blue]"Well, once again my friend, we find that science is a two headed beast. One head is nice, it gives us aspirin and other modern conveniences,...but the other head of science is BAD! Oh, beware the other head of science, Arthur; it bites!!" - The Tick[/blue]

 

[bluedragon2]

An excerpt that goes hand in hand with TomThumbKP's post:

A 40-year-old man and his 16-year-old son (carrying a shotgun) were walking home in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in March when they decided to rob passing pedestrians of the beer they were carrying; in the ensuing fight, police later said, the beer did not change hands, and the son accidentally shot the father. [Winnipeg Sun, 4-2-04]



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