phoneguy55
Programmer
Avaya is making a little more difficult to obtain firmware.
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The new Avaya download center
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I clicked on the link and another window opened up, but it never loaded. Maybe that is because Avaya wants me to use MS Explorer rather than the Firefox I use. I went into another Avaya location and that is what it wanted. Why would anyone use MS Explorer? Maybe because they want to load a keylogger on their computer to collect all their passwords and send them to a hacker in Red China?
I can see where this would be useful if Avaya had a user community whom they were afraid would download the wrong firmware and screw something up... But that's not the case here. This is just a way for them to track. For what reason, I'll not even guess...
Simply put, this is Avaya's way of protecting the bottom line of there business partners. Restrict the access to critically needed patches and software, and the customer will have to pay for it. This is also going to hurt the freelance consultants who are not officially a business partner, but are very well qualified to work on the equipment. This is a very bad move by Avaya...maybe we should start looking harder at open-source platforms such as Asterisk!
After reading my last post, I need to clarify my statement. Avaya is not going to (as far as I am aware) charge for the firmware, or access to the site. However, you will have to have a sold-to number in order to get firmware. It is also unclear if you will get access to all the firmwares, or just ones that pertain to your system. What is likely going to happen, is self-service customers, and consultants are going to have to jump through hoops to get access to the files they need in a timely manner. Probably most customers will end up paying a business partner to do it because it is going to be such a hassle. Look at Cisco and Nortel today...if you want to download an install doc, you have to be registered as a partner, or certified installer...this forces self-service customers to use a business partner...money in the business partner's pockets! I guess business ethics went away with Enron and Martha Stewart! Any Avaya folks out there to comment??
That's what I was told in 4th Q last year. 2006 would be "no avaya or authorized BP maint contract, no downloads or doucuments fo you". Wanna make it uglier? I was told at the same time they were pulling the plug on Maint Assist. If true, that would mean pay Avaya for full coverage or else. In theory, they could use this to try to squeeze out all of the non BP vendors. In reality, I think they are heading towards a big mess.
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YeOldPhoneGuy
Technical User
I have been involved in quite a few RFP's lately. The price for Avaya equipment is typically higher that other vendors. I can easly justify this to a customet, it is a superior porduct.
However the maintenance costs have been become possable deal breakers for some of the clients. Also not allowing customers to have maintenance permission with out purchasing Maintenance Assist has been the largest amount of bad press I have every experienced. Many mention being held "captive" to the manufacturer.
My personal feel is that the manor in which Avaya is securing their maintenance business could become their demise. I believe that Avaya should protect their software, however the cost of the system should also allow customers to self manage their own systems. Most of the other vendors require a login and password to access their telco vendors site to find/download information.
Allowing the customer maintenance permissions should be allowed. Charge a fixed fee to enable it for a customer. Make the fee resonable but not so low in cost all customers purchase it. Avaya does not have the staff to support the current level of customers and can certainly not add the additional ones that this will drive to the TSO for assistance.
Me
Me
However the maintenance costs have been become possable deal breakers for some of the clients. Also not allowing customers to have maintenance permission with out purchasing Maintenance Assist has been the largest amount of bad press I have every experienced. Many mention being held "captive" to the manufacturer.
My personal feel is that the manor in which Avaya is securing their maintenance business could become their demise. I believe that Avaya should protect their software, however the cost of the system should also allow customers to self manage their own systems. Most of the other vendors require a login and password to access their telco vendors site to find/download information.
Allowing the customer maintenance permissions should be allowed. Charge a fixed fee to enable it for a customer. Make the fee resonable but not so low in cost all customers purchase it. Avaya does not have the staff to support the current level of customers and can certainly not add the additional ones that this will drive to the TSO for assistance.
Me
Me
I was told last week that Time and Materials are disappearing and that a business partner or end user would have to have maintenance assist to call tier 3.
Avaya is protecting its profits so even if you go to a business partner for support (which they hate) you will still have to buy something from them.
Its time Avaya woke up, it's no wonder Cisco will be Number 1 soon its not because of the product its because people don't like being taken for a ride on the Avaya services train.
Avaya users have a legal right to be able to self maintain there systems by removing maintenance assist how could they do this?
Avaya is protecting its profits so even if you go to a business partner for support (which they hate) you will still have to buy something from them.
Its time Avaya woke up, it's no wonder Cisco will be Number 1 soon its not because of the product its because people don't like being taken for a ride on the Avaya services train.
Avaya users have a legal right to be able to self maintain there systems by removing maintenance assist how could they do this?
Here's how I see it; Avaya makes a product, which has flaws (bugs) requiring service patches, etc. Now they are going to effectively charge the customer to get those?! It is simply irresponsible and questionable business ethics to market a product like that! I'm not a Microsoft fan, but at least I can pull down a MS update for my pc operating system, and not go through a dealer to get them! I smell law suits here! Simply put, don't put out a faultly product, then charge to fix it!
I agree with you RFWatts. The CIO at my company was reluctant to upgrade our Definity to an S8500 this past summer because of Avaya 'got you by the balls' attitude. When he catches wind of this, probably will be switching platforms next time we are due for a major upgrade.
YEOLDPHONE GUY says that AVaya is understaffed to provide service now, then I can imagine what kinds of problems you will have calling in next month when they lay off 91 people in the Technical Support Center in Denver. Many of those position are the less technical positions, but those people usually take the easy 'phone mail out' calls, so the higher skilled persons can work on harder problems. In addition, 31 of the most skilled technicians, the SAS, will leave next month. There are many persons that are eligble for retirement that will take this opportunity to get the layoff pay plus the retirement. Some of these are the best of techs, but some are the worst too, so it will probably be a wash as to skill levels of the whole group. But the lesser numbers are going to cause service satisfaction to go down.
I keep on thinking that if I hang on to my Avaya stock just a little longer it will go back up so I can sell it, but those hopes are fading.
It looks like that if you don't have the manuals all ready on cd rom or hard drive, you better download them quick before they are no longer available for persons without a service aggreement.
I keep on thinking that if I hang on to my Avaya stock just a little longer it will go back up so I can sell it, but those hopes are fading.
It looks like that if you don't have the manuals all ready on cd rom or hard drive, you better download them quick before they are no longer available for persons without a service aggreement.
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
It gets worse. I was told last week that the end of sale for traditional cabinets and carriers is coming up about the middle of this year. This will make it so you will have to go to the media servers to add another EPN. (Unless you go to the "Gray" or secondary market.)
I don’t really believe Avaya is too concerned with the OLD traditional stuff anymore. They can hire one of the "new kids" that are coming out of collage with a BS in computer science (at less than half of what they are paying their older, more experienced tech's) . Then off to a couple of weeks of school, and Walla, A new Tier 3 engineer for S8???'s or G650's, VoIP or any of the newer technologies.
It just gives you the warm fuzzies all over doesn't it....
Mikey
I don’t really believe Avaya is too concerned with the OLD traditional stuff anymore. They can hire one of the "new kids" that are coming out of collage with a BS in computer science (at less than half of what they are paying their older, more experienced tech's) . Then off to a couple of weeks of school, and Walla, A new Tier 3 engineer for S8???'s or G650's, VoIP or any of the newer technologies.
It just gives you the warm fuzzies all over doesn't it....
Mikey
We stopped buying $50,000 traditional EPN cabinets from Avaya 3-4 years ago since we can get them for $500 off of ebay. "grey market" is just Avaya lingo for pay us more for the same product, please lease it for 3 times the selling that price and turn it in at the end of the lease to be left with nothing. When that same cabinet is sold for $5 at auction in Mobile, AL and put on ebay for $500 it is suddenly not as good as the $50,000 new cabinet and shouldn't be bought at any price because "that would be bad". Yeah right. I don't see the traditional parts market drying up any time soon. It actually seems to be expanding since so many are being dup'ed into dumping their old gear because it's "unsupported". Not that a 799C or 750C, etc.. wont work in a MV1, CM2, CM3 because they will regardless of what you are told.
-CL
-CL
The 'grey market' can also be referring to equipment from overseas that does sometimes problems working with USA equipment.
USA hardware can be bought and sold without problems with AVaya, but the software that runs the system can't be legally sold unless the whole company that owned it is bought. So be carefull what you buy. That is why many companies that sell on ebay don't include the software.
Avaya already has Tier 3 support from India and Poland, but can't legally hire tier 2 support overseas due to union agreements.(that agreement expires this May)
Many of the new hire tier 3 engineers both in USA and overseas don't even know what a cover path is, but do have a rich background in IP.
I think what AVaya would like to be is like Microsoft, HP, and others in that they would like to just do design and marketing, but have someone else do the manfacturing if any.
USA hardware can be bought and sold without problems with AVaya, but the software that runs the system can't be legally sold unless the whole company that owned it is bought. So be carefull what you buy. That is why many companies that sell on ebay don't include the software.
Avaya already has Tier 3 support from India and Poland, but can't legally hire tier 2 support overseas due to union agreements.(that agreement expires this May)
Many of the new hire tier 3 engineers both in USA and overseas don't even know what a cover path is, but do have a rich background in IP.
I think what AVaya would like to be is like Microsoft, HP, and others in that they would like to just do design and marketing, but have someone else do the manfacturing if any.
Been reading this thread with interest but I read a comment that is partially incorrect. A TN750C will work in CM3 if the announcement is already recorded on it when you upgrade to CM3.
You cannot add announcements, change announcements, save announcements, or restore announcements to a TN750C because that uses a data module and Netcon channel which is not available in CM3.
As far as buying hardware in the socalled "gray market", Avaya has no problem with you doing that as long as it does not include their proprietary software. Phones, carriers, cards, and cabinets have been (and will continue to be) available from many sources for some time to come.
The only thing you will have a problem with is equipment that requires a license from Avaya to use.
You cannot add announcements, change announcements, save announcements, or restore announcements to a TN750C because that uses a data module and Netcon channel which is not available in CM3.
As far as buying hardware in the socalled "gray market", Avaya has no problem with you doing that as long as it does not include their proprietary software. Phones, carriers, cards, and cabinets have been (and will continue to be) available from many sources for some time to come.
The only thing you will have a problem with is equipment that requires a license from Avaya to use.
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
I posted a thread a while back I posted a thread a while back thread690-1187485 concerning the TN 750C packs with my (soon to upgrade to CM3) and that was the general consensus regarding them. I could use them but not back them up (the data modules are gone), retore them (my optical disk drives are gone too.) This will let me rerecord these to VAL boards at my leisure and not a crunch type situation before the upgrade. I plan on using what I have and then record then new ones a little at a time and then just do away with them.
I too have been going to the secondary market for carriers, sets and packs and would not go back to buying them from Avaya or an Avaya BP. Most of the packs that are needed for this upgrade I am buying myself instead of my BP to save us money.
Mikey
I too have been going to the secondary market for carriers, sets and packs and would not go back to buying them from Avaya or an Avaya BP. Most of the packs that are needed for this upgrade I am buying myself instead of my BP to save us money.
Mikey
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