The Lexicographer's Dilemma 4

I submit a book review for your .. review.
Original Review here

But I actually first read an interpretation on the idea of Grammer Nazi's here.

So, do you generally correct people's grammar? Is it more of just a friendly suggestion or does it upset you when mistakes are made?

~
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[CajunCenturion]

==> The "verbing" of nouns (or the creation of "nerbs") has been a flashpoint for the past four or five decades with the growth of business management lingo.
I always knew it was management's fault.


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[Trevoke]

Did you misspell "Grammar" on purpose?

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[SantaMufasa]

...does it upset you when mistakes are made?

Yes, especially when weak, passive voice "is used". <grin>

Mufasa
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[sleipnir214]

I will more directly answer your question. In general, I do not correct people's uses of grammar. I guess I do this for three reasons: in most situations I would be rude in providing the correction; I can't always definitively say for sure that I know the person is incorrect or can't site a source to back up my thinking; and I'm more in the "descriptive" category in my thinking about the use of language -- if I'm confident I've understood the meaning the speaker intended to convey, I'll let the complexities of grammar go.

In formal speaking and writing situations, I know grammar errors can lessen the value, in many listeners' opinions, of the ideas being expressed, so I will privately suggest changes.

All that said, I also use a great deal of non-standard English when I speak, and even when I write:[ul][li]I use y'all in both speech and writing to disambiguate between singular and plural[/li][li]I use ain't, but only in speech and exclusively with the pronoun I[/li][li]I accept they as a gender-inspecific singular pronoun (though I don't like it much)[/li][li]I do not accept as absolute the old rule of not ending sentences in prepositions[/li][li]And English is a Germannic language, dammit, not a Romance language, I'll split an infinitive if I want to.[/li][/ul]

Besides, even Shakespeare broke the rules when it suited him.


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[strongm]

>the meaning the speaker intended to convey

To be fair, most criticism of grammar occurs against written material rather than spoken (since it is tricky to determine whether a speaker has used an Oxford comma, not used an apostrophe, or used site when they meant cite ... ;-) )

 

[sleipnir214]

There are things you can catch in speech: misuse of "who" versus "whom" (and other pronoun misuses) comes to mind most readily



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[sleipnir214]

But you're right: most of what I see is from writing, not speech.


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[p5wizard]

A first reading of this thread and I already spotted 3 spelling mistakes... (other people have too)

Opieo: grammer -> grammar
SantaMufasa: whan -> when
Sleipnir214: site -> cite

Just what impression are we trying to make here? <grin>

p5

 

[BadBigBen]

p5, actually that was only one mispelling, the other two are either an artful example or a reference... ;-)

Sleipnir, Y'all from Tejas I presume... and as far as I remember "ain't" is perfectly correct though it is "not standard", it dates back to 1749 according to Merriam-Webster, and the Online Etymologie Dictionary has this to say:

1706, originally a contraction of am not, and in proper use with that sense until it began to be used as a generic contraction for are not, is not, etc., in early 19c. Cockney dialect of London, popularized by representations of this in Dickens, etc., which led to the word being banished from correct English.

Source: OED

and

And English is a Germannic language, dammit, not a Romance language, I'll split an infinitive if I want to.

even though English is a GMC language, it is heavily influenced by both the Latin and French languages, but I'll let you split anything you want and anyway you want, as long as I am on the other side of the big pond... ;-)

Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
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[p5wizard]

Just spotted another one ;-)

Sleipnir214: Germannic -> Germanic

p5

 

[sleipnir214]

BigBadBen:
I only use ain't in the first-person singular because there are already contractions for the other numbers and persons: you're, he's, she's, it's, we're, they're. Only first person singular doesn't have one (except for the Scots, who sometimes use am't). So ain't fills a lexical void.

English has, indeed, been heavily influenced by Romance languages, primarily French and Latin via French -- but many articles I've read on the subject of English grammar and vocabulary describe English as a Germanic language with a Romance vocabulary. English's grammar is still Germanic: we still, for example, put our adjectives before the nouns they describe, not after. Several articles I've read state the admonition against splitting infinitives comes from 18-century lexicographers who prescriptively decided splitting infinitives is incorrect because it's not done in Latin -- despite the fact that Latin infinitives are single words that can't be split.


p5wizard:

A first reading of this thread and I already spotted 3 spelling mistakes

Your sentence should read "I have already spotted", shouldn't it?


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[p5wizard]

That's grammar, not spelling... ;-)

p5

 

[sleipnir214]

p5wizard:

So, do you generally correct people's [red]grammar?[/red] Is it more of just a friendly suggestion or does it upset you when mistakes are made?

(emphasis mine)



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[Annihilannic]

Talking of grammar... I sometimes find myself saying something like "Did she used to do that?" What tense am I trying to use here? Is there a better way of asking whether not she used to do something? "Did she do that before/previously" doesn't quite carry the same meaning...

Annihilannic.

 

[p5wizard]

@Sleipnir214:

Generally, no. And not it this thread either (not grammar mistakes). Not being a native English speaker, who am I to start correcting others who are...
I just thought it funny/odd/... that in a thread about grammar, all of a sudden we're showing no interest in correct spelling. That was all I wanted to point out. If, in doing so, I stepped on people's toes, then please people, accept my apologies.

p5

 

[BadBigBen]

Sleipnir214 - I does agree with thee there...

and there are quite a few words (don't know about the Grammar) that have entered the Englsh language directly from the Roman occupation of the southern English isle... besides the influence of the Norman (which where descendants of Norse tribes, who made a home in what is called Normandy today (France)) conquerors, who subjugated the Angle-Saxon to their language (which at this time was French)...

Darn it, History can be very confusing (<<< Chinese influence see Confuzius)...

ok, I'll promise not to go to deep with my outtake here or future outtakes, I was always bad in Grammar but good in math and history...





Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"

 

[strongm]

>who subjugated the Angle-Saxon to their language (which at this time was French)...

Not quite ... the 'French' (and the posh people in Paris argued that what the Normans spoke was not proper French; it was considered rather rural) was mostly limited to the new the royal court, the legal system and the church (and latterly an influx of merchants). The main population still spoke what passed as English at that time; William the Conqueror even made an effort to learn English. The written language used for for royal and legal charters and proclamations etc. was predominantly Latin (sometimes duplicated in French) replacing the (written) West Sussex English that was used prior to the invasion - although the West Sussex English was already out of touch with the actual spoken dialects of English of the time.

The Norman invasion lead to some quite dramatic simplification of the already evolving Old English, eventually leading to Middle English, and provided a bunch of new words that generally supplemented and enriched, rather than replacing or subjugating, the English vocabulary.

 

[drlex]

Taking on one of strongm's points, I recall from one law lecture that the French influence on the legal system was responsible for the overlapping of similar terms, e.g. "goods and chattels", "break and enter", "sell and assign" so that all could comprehend the laws as written. Whilst the Roundheads required all pleadings to be in English, the Restoration of Charles II also restored the French to the law until it was finally outlawed in the 1730s. The Anglo Norman that does remain is more comprehensible than the original Latin (compare beneficiary to cestui que trust).

soi là, soi carré

 

[IknowMe]

I'm okay with being corrected as it helps me learn. Just don't keep score, I hate to lose. ;-)

[small]Sometimes you gotta leave your zone of safety. You have to manufacture Inspirado. You gotta get out of the apartment. You've got to run with the wolves. You've got to dive into the ocean and fight with the sharks. Or just treat yourself to a delicious hot fudge sundae........ with nuts. - Jack Black[/small]