The IT School Mega-scam Revisited 3

[ITschoolGuy]

Hello-

Forgive me for dredging up this subject again. I happened upon the original thread by accident while searching for something unrelated and I was intrigued. I have been an instructor in trade/technical schools (as well as a student in some) for over 15 years. I think the reason I am writing this is to try to dispell some of the myths and misinformation regarding IT schools and, hopefully, help some people in the process.

I tried to read as many of the original posts as possible so I could be objective. The thing that troubles me most is the prevailing opinion that IT schools in general are out to rip people off or that they don't/can't deliver what they promise. I will agree that a few of the larger schools like Chubb and CLC may have helped give the whole IT training field a bad name. However, most of the schools out there are reputable and their students can benefit from what they have to offer.

The idea that IT training for novices is just a scam is hard for me to accept. The root of all good advertising (and recruitment, for that matter) is the creation of a perception. Yes...IT schools do try to create the perception in their prospective students that there are GREAT jobs to be had at HIGH salaries upon graduation. That perception is what ultimately leads a prospect to become an enrolee. The fact is that the words GREAT and HIGH are subjective. Thirty thousand dollars a year might be a "high" salary to a 20 year old kid. However, the school Admissions people, Administrators, and Instructors have to possess enough integrity to be honest with students about the potential downfalls. Also, steps need to be taken to inform the students about just how much work is really required of them in order to succeed in their job quests (and in KEEPING whatever jobs they find).

The person who started the original thread stated that there "are no entry level jobs in the IT field". This is absolutely not so. There are probably tens of thousands of jobs nationwide that could be filled by entry level people. Those people simply must realize what their limitations are and that their salaries will be commensurate with their (limited) experience. As they gain experience, they can expect to earn greater salaries.

That having been said, here are some helpful suggestions as well as some hints that I give to my own studnets to aid them in their education. I hope someone out there can benefit from all this.

1. Go Shopping...Don't just sign up at some school because the recruiter sweet-talked you into it. Check out a number of different schools. Compare their curricula. Speak to their graduates or current students. Get their placement statistics. Find out if they are Federally accredited.

1A. Ask to sit in on a class...You may have read some of the horror stories in the earlier posts in this forum. DO NOT sign up at a school where instructors read aloud from text books. Sit in and judge for yourself. Does the teacher seem comfortable? Does he/she make an effort to motivate the students and keep them involved? Does he/she seem to have a good working knowledge of the topic being taught? If not...a red flag should go up.

2. Find out if the school you're considering has entry requirements or gives aptitude tests. Unfortunately, there are just some people who are not cut out to work with high technology. You may as well discover if you are one of them before attending a $10,000 school. Chances are if you're reading this forum it's not an issue.

3. Don't expect to become an MCSE, CNE, CCNA or whatever fresh out of school. I always tell my students to do a good 6-8 weeks of thorough study ABOVE & BEYOND our classwork before even attempting a certification exam. Certifications are nice and they may help get a foot in the door to a job but they are meaningless unless there is some real knowledge there to back them up.

4. Don't rely solely on the "hands-on" lab at your school to gain experience. Set up a cheap computer (or preferably a mini-LAN) at home and practice what you have learned. For even more real world flavor (if you can afford it)get Internet access and install/configure a router. This additional practical experience will really help.

5. If you are a full time student, get a part time job in a computer retail store or other environment that will force you to quickly acquaint yourself with the technology you are learning. The money will help, the technical knowledge you gain won't hurt, and the inevitable sales experience you'll get may come in handy someday.

6. Avoid short certification training programs or "boot camps" if you are a novice. These are really only useful for experienced technicians looking for a quick path to certification.

7. Finally, even if you are the greatest student in the best IT school in the country, expect to spend 3-5 years in the field at a relatively low salary before you can truly qualify for the IT jobs that the poster of the original thread was griping about.

Good luck to all!!

Chris Collins, MCSE, CNA

 

[BeckahC]

Not to get off topic, but do you have instructors in SQL Server (we work with 7.0 right now) BeckahC

 

[ITschoolGuy]

BeckahC-

Sorry it took me so long to check this thread again. I was away on a business trip in Fleetwood, PA. (installing a Win 2K Server with a bunch of workstations and terminals hooked up through a port replicatior...great fun!)

We don't offer any classes in SQL Server but I believe our evening instructor is experienced with it...which means we might be able to custom-tailor a course if there were enough interest in it.

Chris Collins

 

[BeckahC]

hmmm... that would be something I'd look into (if my company were interested in paying $ for training right now) I would only be able to go at night, unless they were short classes for only a day or a week or somewhere in between. It's good to know there's some good schools out there! BeckahC

 

[gurner]

It took me over a year and a half to finally find a company willing to give an unQualified, reading from a book and breaking and fixing PCs type of bloke like me a chance.

It is my first foray into IT, and i want it for keeps. I've been here for about a year and loving the Network element of the job (i'm in a Database specialist company)

I swear, learning the OSI model and TCP/IP in depth (plus putting my CV on CD as an interative eBook type presentation) was invaluable.

Also, being interviewed by a 100% million dollar techie that could see where i was coming from, and not some HR or Middle Management type was a life line!

 

[Guest_imported]

To all: If you want a real career in the computer/technology industry, get a real degree in computer science, engineering, math or physics (that is a Bachelor of Science degree from a reputable technical university). The IT schools are NOT the equivalent of real academia, despite their claims otherwise, and the industry recognizes that. I have been in the computer design industry for 25 years and would never trade my BS and MS in electrical engineering and computer science (from a real engineering school) for all the "MCSE", "CNA", and IT "certifications" in the world. These are a dime a dozen, and when you go out into the industry with them, one of millions with the same thing but no real professional educational credentials, you will learn the hard way!

 

[Guest_imported]

Also, in reference to the above, I have not been unemployed in 25 years since finishing college, and my salary has never gone down in that time. Your education's value is in direct proportion to the effort it takes to get it. There is no shortcut or quickie equivalent to a 4-year and graduate degree!

 

[dogbert2]

Well, to throw in my two cents, I think a combination
of college education (2/4 year degree), certs, and
work experience has worked well for me.

I have worked more than 20 years in I.T., and have
for the most part enjoyed it. However, it seems
that more and more, people are just ATTEMPTING to
get into this field for what they think will be a
BIG payday (most are sadly mistaken, IMO).

I started on mainframes, went to PC's, client/server,
etc. Along the way I learned to program in a dozen
languages, develop a understanding of unix/linux/novell/
OS/2, windows, mainframe operating systems, and
learned about networks, routers, etc.

If a student is dead serious about staying long term in
I.T., start with a 2 year degree in computers, then
work your way into a 4 year college program in management
(while picking up certs along the way). If you can find
some low end job doing grunt work in I.T. that helps also
(my first job back in 1982 was for a whopping $6.00 an hour,
so don't feel too bad)

 

[ITschoolGuy]

Hello again everyone,

I didn't expect anyone to still be posting to this thread which is why I haven't checked it in quite a while. I've noticed that the last few posts emphasize the importance of a college education. I agree wholeheartedly...a BSEE or BSCS is highly valuable and the knowledge and experience that you get cannot be substituted for by a 9 month IT training school.

But...

Many people are unwilling or unable to spend 4 years in school at tens of thousands of dollars per year... especially given that many colleges' core curricula require that the bulk of your credits be in liberal arts and other such subjects. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking 4 year degrees or the people who hold them. However, my point in starting this thread was to reassure people that they CAN have positive IT training experiences and CAN succeed in this field even if they attend trade/technical schools as opposed to college.

Also, there seems to be a general consensus that IT certifications are worthless. Nothing could be further from the truth. My CNA got me my first LAN Administrator job and my MCSE helped get me into the consulting gig I'm doing right now...and I do not have a college degree. I've also graduated several students from my school who got certified and got jobs. The thing to remember about certs is that they should not be treated as a guaranteed ticket to success. Nor are they the only criterion by which a job applicant will be judged. The person who gets the cert should have real world experience to back it up. It is the plethora of paper MCSEs and CNEs that give the rest of us a bad rap.

If you can afford college...go for it! But, if not, take heart. I still maintain that there are IT training schools out there that can benefit you if you're willing to work hard.

Chris

 

[dogbert2]

Hell, a better way is to start in a 2 year community
college to pick up an associates in computer technology
(or something along those lines), the cost will be quite
small compared to a 4 year university, and if you pick
your courses right, all your core stuff should transfer
and you should be able to start in a BS/BA program in
IS/IT/CS, etc.

The long term goal is education, however, many students
are still looking for "what will make me the most $$$$
in the shortest amount of time"? A lot of students who
chose IS/IT/CS and finished degrees in SPR 2001/Fall 2001,
Spring 2002 are wishing they had picked something else,
as the supply of workers to jobs in high tech is way
out of scope compared to the dot-bomb craze.

Another thing is that right now, NOT very many entry
level positions exist in the market place, and I see
a LOT of jobs requiring a degree + 3-5 years experience
(or 8 years w/out a degree), usually on systems that most recent grads have never seen in the first place), so
they are automatically shut out of the market (I know
some people personally who are in this boat).

I'd like to see a 4 year program where a student learns
the basics and picks up the certs along the way, and by
the time he or she is finished, their education is well
rounded (by college definitions), but they will need to
continue learning as long as they are working in this
field.

 

[svanels]

Not everybody who owns a degree/certificate is a success or wil receive big pays. There are several factors that contribute to the development of one's career (and paycheck). Attitude, determination, creativity, willing to learn and picking up a challenge are the basic ones, and they are in the hand of the individual.
One thing recognition becomes after (hard) work. Only in the dictionary it comes before. Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[cyclegeek]

Basically in response to cons_engineer, anyone who says the only formula for success is x + y be damned. I'm sure none among us begrudge a bit of cons_engineer's self preening pride in academic or field success, but, his is not the only path nor even the only job in the only career falling under the very general category of, Information Technology.

Programmer, network administrator, pc repair specialist and even computer designer are job titles that may share an interest in the use or function of an actual computer but may also share none of their requisite skill sets or experience (academic or otherwise). The larger investment in education that is absolutely required to design computer chips is not necessarily needed or even helpful for someone making a name for themselves in a strictly MS/Oracle shop.

The non-degreed car mechanic sitting next to me at Programmer Mill U. could code me under the table any day of the week. A doctorate friend doing all sorts of neat cryto stuff for the government couldn't code his way out of a paper bag. One could say, it takes all types.

Cheers,
cyclegeek

 

[CajunCenturion]

Consider the following relationships.

Doctor vs. Paramedic
Which one went to college, which one to tech school. Who has the degree, and who has the certificate? Which one has a career, which one has a job? Where is the money?

Same questions

Attorney vs Paralegal
Architect vs Carpenter
Mechanical Engineer vs Mechanic
Electrical Engineer vs Electrician
Software Engineer vs Programmer
Hardward Engineer vs Support Technician

Please don't get me wrong - I am not bashing any tech school, university, nor any job or profession. There is a place for everyone, and everyone has a place. But we all must be realistic. Its important to understand the place that each of of has chosen. Although every rule has an exception, we need to realize the environment, and the attributes and the inherent limitations of our chosen path.

I am not saying that either is right or wrong, nor that one is necessarily better the other. That will vary from person to person, depending on individual skills, aspirations, and the current economic circumstances that we find ourselves in.

They are simply different. One cannot make a judgement as to the viability of any path selection without fully understanding the goals and conditions of the individual as related to the business environment and economic factors currently in effect. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[cyclegeek]

CajunCenturion - I think your diplomatic post speaks very directly to the truth of the matter in that we're all talking about mostly different jobs in sometimes different fields and that value judgement among chosen roles is irrelevent; and all delivered with less acrimony than my own earlier post.

Cheers,
cyclegeek

 

[DrGreen26]

I posted several comments in another forum relating to just this subject mentioned. Here is the link and enjoy reading. There are a lot of good pointers and key information that may prove to be beneficial to someone.

Cut and paste the entire link into the address bar of your browswer <no spaces>

thread469-110683
Mark C. Greenwood, CNE
m_jgreenwood@yahoo.com

With more than 10 years experience to share.

 

[Haazi2]

I work as a programmer doing web development for a financial firm. My BS is in economics, but I have a heavy math background because I was in econometrics which is very math oriented. I also have taken a lot of computer classes since then(for example, operating systems, C and Unix, Fortran, Pascal, IBM 370 assembler, Cobol, System analysis and design using Cobol. I want to get a degree in computer science(bachelors or masters). I think a degree would definitely help me. What do you suggest? I would like to hear from cons_engineer, CajunCenturion, or meadandale since they believe a college trained person is a better software developer and I tend to agree with their viewpoint. I'm also pursuing certs in java and as a mcsd too. Any advice is welcome.

 

[CajunCenturion]

There is no doubt in my mind that if you want to have a good career, with advancement potential in IT, then a college degree is almost a must. Espeically now that the Dot.Com rush is over, and there are lots of investors licking their wounds, and employers who staffed up for the onslaught have let quite a few go. Things are getting back to a good business model. Investors/Employers are going back to the basics when it comes to evaluating talent. A college degree in comp sci (or equivalent) does go a long way in helping to establish that all important first impression. Competition is tough, and the bar has been raised. Certificates are a dime a dozen, whereas that degree helps get you over that initial bar. If you can afford it, get the degree - its a good investment in yourself. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[meadandale]

Haazi2,

Go for the degree. I'd suggest an MS, not a BS. Since you already have a BS it doesn't make sense to go back and get another one. The masters is more meaningful. BTW, a masters degree can be finished in 2-3 years, even working almost fulltime. No way you can do that with a BS.

I've previously said that I prefer degreed individuals over certificate holders. This is true--at least in programming. While I think that having a java cert AS WELL AS a degree is a plus, I wouldn't substitutue the cert FOR the degree.

Most cert programs in programming teach you the syntactical constructs of programming and have you do VERY easy projects. Compare that to the theory of CS (e.g. algorithms, discrete math, operating systems, etc) that you learn in a degree as well as the difficulty of the programming assignments and I contend that 90% of CS students are exposed to much more information than can ever be learned in a certificate program.

I believe that you cannot be an effective developer unless you have a solid understanding about what is going on at the bit level in your machine when you are programming. Writing high performance, robust applications means that you need to know the theory as well as the practice.

I'm constantly amazed at how many developers that I've met don't even know what the shift operator is or why it would be used...

BTW, a programmer with a solid background in finance can make $$$. I'd go for the degree and never look back. In spite of the current slump, there will always be a need for developers, especially in the finance industry.

Good luck!

 

[Haazi2]

Thanks CajunCenturion and meadandale for your advice. I have decided getting a master's in computer science is the way to go. I do have one question for both of you. Is it better to specialize in getting a master's(database, software engineering, etc) or is getting a master's in computer science enough? I guess I better start looking at how to finance getting a master's too. I know you think people who went the cert route and spent big bucks were ripped off, what advice would you give such people? I have friends who did the same. Should they give up looking for a career in IT and do something else? Again, thanks a lot for your insights and advice.

 

[meadandale]

I don't know about all Master's programs but the one that I am enrolled in at UCSD requires that all students choose an 'emphasis' which can be in any of a variety of areas including networking, databases, etc.

In regards to paying for school, I was able to get the companies that I worked for to foot a large portion of the bill with tuition reimbursement. I also TA'd for quite a few quarters (~10 hrs/wk). The stipend for this paid most of the tuition and paid me ~$700/month to boot. I had jobs where I was able to work ~30 hrs/wk during most of my degree and I took a 'half load' (2 classes) whereas the fulltime students were taking 3 classes and not working.

What I couldn't get reimbursed, I paid for and wrote off on my taxes as unreimbursed educational expenses since I was already working in the IT field.

 

[meadandale]

Hmm, 30k for an associates...from a tech college? And you're only hoping to be making $30k within 2 years? I'd say that ITT sold you some beachfront property. It'd likely cost you less than this to have gone to SDSU or UCSD for that matter and you'd be making double this in the same time frame.

Maybe you can sue?