The IT School Mega-scam Revisited 3

[ITschoolGuy]

Hello-

Forgive me for dredging up this subject again. I happened upon the original thread by accident while searching for something unrelated and I was intrigued. I have been an instructor in trade/technical schools (as well as a student in some) for over 15 years. I think the reason I am writing this is to try to dispell some of the myths and misinformation regarding IT schools and, hopefully, help some people in the process.

I tried to read as many of the original posts as possible so I could be objective. The thing that troubles me most is the prevailing opinion that IT schools in general are out to rip people off or that they don't/can't deliver what they promise. I will agree that a few of the larger schools like Chubb and CLC may have helped give the whole IT training field a bad name. However, most of the schools out there are reputable and their students can benefit from what they have to offer.

The idea that IT training for novices is just a scam is hard for me to accept. The root of all good advertising (and recruitment, for that matter) is the creation of a perception. Yes...IT schools do try to create the perception in their prospective students that there are GREAT jobs to be had at HIGH salaries upon graduation. That perception is what ultimately leads a prospect to become an enrolee. The fact is that the words GREAT and HIGH are subjective. Thirty thousand dollars a year might be a "high" salary to a 20 year old kid. However, the school Admissions people, Administrators, and Instructors have to possess enough integrity to be honest with students about the potential downfalls. Also, steps need to be taken to inform the students about just how much work is really required of them in order to succeed in their job quests (and in KEEPING whatever jobs they find).

The person who started the original thread stated that there "are no entry level jobs in the IT field". This is absolutely not so. There are probably tens of thousands of jobs nationwide that could be filled by entry level people. Those people simply must realize what their limitations are and that their salaries will be commensurate with their (limited) experience. As they gain experience, they can expect to earn greater salaries.

That having been said, here are some helpful suggestions as well as some hints that I give to my own studnets to aid them in their education. I hope someone out there can benefit from all this.

1. Go Shopping...Don't just sign up at some school because the recruiter sweet-talked you into it. Check out a number of different schools. Compare their curricula. Speak to their graduates or current students. Get their placement statistics. Find out if they are Federally accredited.

1A. Ask to sit in on a class...You may have read some of the horror stories in the earlier posts in this forum. DO NOT sign up at a school where instructors read aloud from text books. Sit in and judge for yourself. Does the teacher seem comfortable? Does he/she make an effort to motivate the students and keep them involved? Does he/she seem to have a good working knowledge of the topic being taught? If not...a red flag should go up.

2. Find out if the school you're considering has entry requirements or gives aptitude tests. Unfortunately, there are just some people who are not cut out to work with high technology. You may as well discover if you are one of them before attending a $10,000 school. Chances are if you're reading this forum it's not an issue.

3. Don't expect to become an MCSE, CNE, CCNA or whatever fresh out of school. I always tell my students to do a good 6-8 weeks of thorough study ABOVE & BEYOND our classwork before even attempting a certification exam. Certifications are nice and they may help get a foot in the door to a job but they are meaningless unless there is some real knowledge there to back them up.

4. Don't rely solely on the "hands-on" lab at your school to gain experience. Set up a cheap computer (or preferably a mini-LAN) at home and practice what you have learned. For even more real world flavor (if you can afford it)get Internet access and install/configure a router. This additional practical experience will really help.

5. If you are a full time student, get a part time job in a computer retail store or other environment that will force you to quickly acquaint yourself with the technology you are learning. The money will help, the technical knowledge you gain won't hurt, and the inevitable sales experience you'll get may come in handy someday.

6. Avoid short certification training programs or "boot camps" if you are a novice. These are really only useful for experienced technicians looking for a quick path to certification.

7. Finally, even if you are the greatest student in the best IT school in the country, expect to spend 3-5 years in the field at a relatively low salary before you can truly qualify for the IT jobs that the poster of the original thread was griping about.

Good luck to all!!

Chris Collins, MCSE, CNA

 

[dogbert2]

The message posted by Chris is ABSOLUTELY right on
target. If you are thinking of getting into IT
simply for the $$$, forget it...there are a lot of
other fields that pay a LOT more money (Auto
Mechanic for one) . Enuf' said...

 

[MasterRacker]

Exactly. Do it because you like it. And remember you're not going to get 'big' bucks until you have both an education AND time on the job in the real world.

(Actually, the best reason to go into IT is because you're a masochist and also thrive on extreme stress... ;-) )
Jeff
Working in IT is like trying to commit suicide with a very small hammer ....

 

[SteveTheGeek]

I've met a couple IT folks who are more sadist and thrive on telling users "your file is gone forever" too - guess it takes all types...
-Steve

 

[ITschoolGuy]

Hi again-

I wasn't gonna' write anything else here...I was more interested in seeing what kinds of responses got posted. However, SteveTheGeek and MasterRacker brought up something interesting about IT peoples' personalities. I think you start out in it because you enjoy it. Then as time goes by and you realize that 90% of your headaches are caused by the very users you were hired to support. Then maybe you become a little bit sadistic.

...as in "Oh, you can't access the database, just type FORMAT C: at the command line". I often tell my students that they'll form a love/hate relationship with their users. They'll hate them because of all the problems they cause but those problems are what keep people like us in business.

 

[SteveTheGeek]

Hmmmm... You might have a point, although I find that rather than sadism or masochism, I get some pleasure from knowing things most other people don't know, and being able to use that knowledge to help them out.
-Steve

Come to think of it, does tracing spammers and hacking their servers count as sadism, or helping (albeit in a roundabout way) users?

 

[MasterRacker]

Hacking spammers is only a band-aid. Nuking them from orbit is the only true solution. (Goes for tele-marketers too.)
Jeff
Working in IT is like trying to commit suicide with a very small hammer ....

 

[ITschoolGuy]

Steve-

Your point is well taken. I think, deep down, I even get some pleasure out of being a better technician or administrator than some of my co-workers. It's not that I enjoy showing them up or anything...rather it's a matter of personal pride that all my hard work has actually resulted in a lot of useful working knowledge. Also, I do enjoy helping others with that knowledge...which is why I'm an IT instructor.

But, by the same token, I think some secret sadist part of all of us DOES enjoy showing up certain end-users...
especially the really annoying ones. I know that's lousy but it's probably true.

As for the spammers and tele-marketers...I can't wait until somebody invents some of that Star Trek technology that infiltrates computer systems with micro-miniature life-forms and destroys them. Oh God, I've admitted to being a Trekkie!

Maybe I'd better shut up now.

Later,
Chris Collins, MCSE, CNA

 

[JohnInMIS]

. . no entry level jobs in the IT field . .

That's what it seems like to me.
I'm a recent MIS graduate that's been looking for work for a few months now.

Many of the jobs posted on line and in newspaper ads are looking for at least 2 to 5 years of experience. And almost all the jobs seem to require knowledge of some software or programming language that I don't have.

I have a few years of help desk experience, but most help desk jobs require knowledge of special software for use with help desk.

So where someone with a Bachelor's degree in MIS can find good jobs, good work experience, and good training in software that companies want (examples: peoplesoft, various testing software, extra)?

P.S. If this should be posted in a different forum please give me suggestions.

 

[thelabguy]

You do have to realise that most companies are in the process of massive "restructuring," and not just in IT. I have many friends and family that either had to retire a little earlier than planned, or just recieved a hefty shake of the hand and a parting gift. Times are hard for everyone but hopefully, as predicted, the market will make that turn around so we can stop the sweating, and you can get the job you're looking for! Jarod, The Lab Guy

 

[dogbert2]

JohnInMIS,

Welcome to the world of IT, and as for what people want
in the paper, if most colleges which offered degrees in
IS/IT/CS kept pace with technology they would produce
students with the skills that are needed. Where I live,
we have plenty of AS/400's, but our 4 year university
program in IS or CS doesn't give a student any experience
on using one, let alone programming or operating one. So
when the job opening says 'looking for someone with 2-3
years of coding RPG, JCL, etc' the students here are
automatically shut out of the equation.

When I started (back in 1982), it was all mainframe
based (terminals/teletype, etc). These days, the market
has gone client/server, but I have been fortunate enough
to expand my knowledge going from job to job (my first
job was a BASIC and fortran language tutor paying $6 an
hour). It is frustrating to see what has happened in
our industry because of the dot.com to dot.bomb issue,
in addition to producing more people to work in the
market than there are jobs available.

I suspect it will take a couple of years for this
mess to straighten itself out, however there is a
bright note as within 4-6 years, the baby boomer
population will start to retire, opening up more jobs
(both experienced and entry level). I do also agree
with you about the lack of internships or OJT which
isn't available these days (like it was 20 years ago).

-Bill (20 years in IT this August)

 

[BeckahC]

I just don't think there are any classes out there in existance that could prepare anyone for what IT, in any part of IT, is really like. A lot of them are good for people who need to learn computer basics, but learning the basics isn't going to be more than the first step of many. Most companies are not hiring now without a certain number of years of experience, too.

I think that the commercials about people going on right out of school and getting prestigious high paying jobs is false advertising. However, I have seen some where they claim to "help you on your way to a better career" or "give you the basic skills you need to get started" That seems more accurate to me.

I think the original thread mentioned a great deal about the false advertising and people geting suckered into paying for overpriced programs that claim high job placement rates, then you find out later that all they do is send out resumes to newspaper ads and give you numbers to call from the paper to try to set up interviews for yourself... That's the scam. If the schools advertised what they actually do then it would be fine. BeckahC

 

[ITschoolGuy]

I think the opinions expresed by BeckahC are a great example of why I wanted to revisit this topic.

The point is that there are IT classes out there that can prepare people for what they'll really face in the IT field. Some of them do start out with computer basics (for those people who are not terribly experienced) but the good ones carry it much much further.

For example, students can't graduate from my program until they have thoroughly studied PC hardware, MS-DOS, Windows 3x, 9x, NT, 2000 and Novell NetWare 3x, 4x and 5x. They are required to learn networking inside and out. They must demonstrate their knowledge through practical projects and they must ultimately plan, design, implement, and administer a multi-platform, multi-domain network. These people don't just write on their resumes..."I can create user accounts in NT". They have already built and managed a mini-infrastructure before leaving school. They run cabling, crimp and punch-down connectors, install hubs and routers, build PCs, install O/S's and apps, manage security, create naming and name resolution schemes, create IP subnets, configure shared Internet access, etc. In many cases, the really good students even get a chance to learn a little HTML, web site design, and web server administration.

Sure, they're still completely green by comparison to anyone with real work experience...but they are prepared to enter the IT industry.

As for the "false advertising" issue...I give you this analogy: If you drink Pepsi, do you automatically become this ultra-cool, genX dude who hangs out with Britney Spears? Of course not...but that image is what helps PepsiCo sell products. By the same token, when DeVry or some other huge school advertises on TV, they're going to use imagery designed to create a perception...namely, the perception that their graduates are all highly paid, successful professionals. Is it true? Probably not. But the reputable schools will tell you that you are simply being prepared to enter a field...what you do with that preparation is what will determine how successful you can be.

Chris Collins, MCSE, CNA

 

[BeckahC]

If you look at those Pepsi commercials close enough, they do have disclaimers, first of all. Second, if it is not going to be possible to leave the class or school and get a "High paying job in the growing fields of IT" or similar, straight out of the school, then it should not be advertised that you will. That is the thing I have a problem with. I have seen the ads that promise to help you towards a career, and I think that's fine, it's honest and true.

I have been to training schools and have learned more than just the basics, but after coming away from those programs, I can honestly say I needed the experience of working with what I learned and with someone at work who had been working with it for years sitting with me and letting me sit with him and seriously watching and learning... I think without the class I would have been totally lost. But without the experience of seeing it all in action (and they were all hands-on classes I took), I would have had a lot of fading theories and planned exercises in my head that wouldn't do me any good.

I agree that IT schools and classes, if presented correctly, and what Chris is describing sounds wonderful, they can be a really great stepping stone towards a great career... but they do not give you experience, without which it is very difficult and quite often an uphill battle to get into IT. I am only saying that the schools should not be advertising that their school will do anything more than get you started and help give you those building blocks... it is only the ones that advertise that you can reach your dream job and have your dream income and career if you go to their school... that just doesn't happen, and Chris I think you are saying the same thing... the school is a great way to learn, but you still need experience and should expect to come out of the classes into a position (if you can find one) in which you will have to "pay your dues" and start from the bottom and work your way up... nothing wrong with that, I just don't think people should be suckered into taking classes and courses that they think are going to make them instantly desireable by big IT companies... Most job ads include a required number of years of experience, and no school can give you that.

I certainly don't mean to argue, only to point out my opinion and why it is my opinion. BeckahC

 

[ITschoolGuy]

BeckahC-

Don't get me wrong...I see where you're coming from. My point in starting the thread and in my last couple of posts was just to let people know that not every IT school is a rip-off. I can tell from reading your posts that you're aware of that already. We're on the same wavelength.

...and, yes, I agree that there is no substitute for real field experience. Although I would much rather attend an IT school that emphasized "real-world" projects than one where instructors simply read out loud from text books.

Please understand, I work in the IT training field and take great pride in the job I do for my students. I wanted the other readers of the forum to realize that there are some schools/instructors out there with real integrity that aren't just out to take their money.

Chris

 

[BeckahC]

I can definitely see where you are coming from. I have had great training experiences, myself, and I would always recommend people go ahead and get training. I would never tell someone that it will be the key that gets them a higher salary, I would tell them it's a great tool to help them get there

By the way, is your school anywhere in the Northeast US? The programs you describe sound excellent, and I might be interested if I can convince my company to invest in some new training. I am always looking to learn more! BeckahC

 

[petey]

My formal IT schooling consists of courses some of which were pathetic and some of which were brilliantly successful. Buying training is really the same as buying a car or a house, you have to be 'choosy' or you risk wasting both time and money.

IMHO, find out as much as you can about the teacher. Make sure he knows his stuff AND knows how to teach. Everything else (lab equipment, curriculum) will likely be just fine if the teacher is top-notch, else why would he stick around?

Look for books he's written, conferences he's spoken at, places he's worked or consulted. Does he travel? Is he in demand? If he's written for O'Reilly, Prentice Hall, or some other reputable publisher, very good indicator. Sit in on a class or two. Does he explain why as well as what/how? If he *just* teaches and doesn't do other stuff on the side, that might be bad because how does he stay current in the fast-moving IT world?

-petey

 

[hannahsh]

On it for the money or because its fun ??????

the biggest problem is that just too many kids are attracted to IT for the financial rewards and have no interest in the serious issues faced by support engineers.

Ask them to do a small job and it takes then a life time, when they should have done it before you have to even ask.

Then a lot of full-time permies "hate" professional consultants and long term contractors cos we have been paid well and done so many interesting jobs for the past 10 years.

Here in the Uk IT is in a bad way, especially in the NORTH, contracting is almost dead and perm jobs are paying peanuts. Many good quality engineers simply cant get any work as their skills are replaced by useless cheap young kids, so its a case of studing and doing boring things like project management that previously was done by boring useless twerps !!

 

[BeckahC]

I think if the money were there then the people who are truely gifted at it would not be forced to leave the industry just to make ends meet. I consider myself almost a "starving programmer" I stay with what I do because I really love my work, but my frustration level is high and I may or may not be able to afford to continue to work when my baby is born because I might well have to pay more than my paycheck each week to keep my baby in daycare. That is sad because if I have to leave the industry then my company loses yet another "good" employee who likes what they do and puts feeling and substance to their work, simply because they just don't pay enough to survive on.

A lot of young people, new to the industry were raised on the beliefs that they could make a lot of money following their dreams if they are good enough and smart enough.... a lot of them are very disappointed and "shellshocked" I suppose, to get into the industry and find that their work is worth "peanuts" to the companies and that they seem to be a dime a dozen as far as management is concerned. I think these are the people that just don't bother trying more than they have to anymore.

I used to love the idea of studying Sociology or Literature - you know what my parents told me? How do you think you'll make any money? How will you support yourself? It's nice as a hobby, but don't expect it to amount to anything "important". So I searched until I found something I like that I though would pay well... and here I am. I am attatched to staying in IT, and yet I make probably less than an English Lit teacher would make teaching a bunch of High Schoolers and getting the summers off. But it really is too late, I fgound the field for me, and I am stuck because I want to do well and succeed at something I enjoy as much as this. BeckahC

 

[ITschoolGuy]

I would be willing to bet that today's economy has put a huge kink in the IT field just as in so many other fields. Take heart though...the economy will eventually turn around. I know a lot of people can't afford to wait until it does and they may need to look for work outside their chosen fields. However, IMHO those same people may be highly in demand again in another year or two.

Also, as much as I am an advocate of IT training, those of us who have real field experience WILL still have the advantage over the newbies. There's no substitute for an experienced person in high-technology. When the economy improves, more organizations can afford to think in those same terms.

Maybe the best thing to do in the meantime is pursue additional training at someone else's expense, if possible. For example, utilize your company's tuition reimbursement if they offer any. Or, if you're out of work, look into "workforce development" programs in your state. Heck...even self-study is worth your time if it gives you a "one-up" on the other guy.

BTW, the school at which I teach was founded by a gentleman with 20 years field experience who is degreed in CIS and taught computer technology and electronics at one of those big "rip-off" schools. I worked with him there and we both got so frustrated at the approach that we decided to open our own school. We are in northern New Jersey...been in business for about three years...most of our graduates are now employed and happy in their jobs. However, it has been tougher for those who finished recently. We do everything in our power to help them...including resume preparation, setting up interviews, making contacts, etc.

I am Novell and Microsoft certified...work outside school with a small firm that does networking, systems integration, consulting, etc. Been in the field in one capacity or another since 1983. Started teaching in '87...love it!

I don't know if any of that makes me credible. However, I've had some great success stories with students of mine who broke into the IT field...so I just keep on plugging trying to help more people.

Chris Collins, MCSE, CNA