The future of Sybase 2

[sybaseguru]

Dear friends,

I hope you excuse me. However, I have been in Sybase business for a long time and I am a Sybase fan. Regrettably in the past couple of years and more recently with the current bad situation in the Financial markets I feel that Sybase is gradually losing its position as a strategic database. What I am trying to get to is that Sybase is squeezed from the top by the likes of Oracle, sideways by MS SQL Server and from the bottom by freebee MySql etc. Sybase being effectively a single sector product (almost entirely in the Fiancial markets with a bit of media and healthcare) has not helped either.

Your comments are appreciated. Is there occasions in your work area that projects are migrating from Sybase to MS SQL Server or Oracle? Do you think that time is running out for Sybase.

Thanks

 

[JeanNiBee]

Hi

I sincerly hope that it is not.

As you said, Sybase is heavily in the financial world. three of my last jobs were for some large Banks and/or Investment company's and they were all HEAVY into Sybase. I have heard from colleagues that Sybase is very popular in Europ also as an enterprise level solution.

My current job/client's DB servers are Sybase, but from what I understand a lot of their new product implementations are going to be build on DB/2 running on Linux systems. They haven't committed, but you can see some of the new stuff running on DB/2.

I think one things that bugs the hell out of me about Sybase is that they don't seem to take the Linux world seriously. Unless something has changed in the last month, their products don't run on the newer Linux versions due to a problem with the underlying native libraries (glib / glibc).

How can you expect to be taken seriously, when the server market is making HUGE switches to Linux from Solaris/NT and you can't run on these platforms.

As soon a new kernel/*nix distro comes out, Sybase should jump on the ball and get their product working on it.

Currently you need to use RH 7.2 or earlier (current version is 9.0) to run Sybase. Judging by feedback in the Sybase forums, deploying for Linux is not 100% production ready.

People looking at DB's to run applications are moving to the other *nix proven solutions like Mysql, Oracle and DB/2.

Oh, and as an aside Mysql is a damn decent database for mid level solutions. As of ver 4.0 w/ the InnoDB implentations is part of the standard package, and this is a decentl productive transaction handler. Once they get stored procedures down and fix a few other 'missing' pieces that most other DB's have they will be a very big force to be reconned with.

Only Sybase and Oracle out=performs Mysql on benchmarks that were run simulating 500 concurrent users.

I can find the reports if you would like to see them.

Sybase needs to get itself into the market and not just floating around the outsides.

I still love the Sybase server but and frustrated with Linux support. I run, as personal projects, some pretty DB intense web application and I have been forced, for now, to use Mysql as my option even though I would much rather bite the bullet and get a server license for Sybase.. but it doesn't install.

:/


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[JeanNiBee]

Man did I speak too quickly.

I just got a notice from Sybase that 12.5.1 is being released in beta (today) and it's Linux ready to go.

hehe....



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[softwareguy]

As an ISV we originally chose Sybase as our solution as it would run on many platforms and was fairly inexpensive. We now recommend MS SQL to most of our customers who are running on Windows. I do like the Sybase products but their reputation for originally bring buggy products to market really hurts. We deal with a lot of municipalities that tend to be a little gun shy with products that aren't really stable. I guess I'm on the fence whether they go or stay. I don't see much to differentiate them from the big guns now.

 

[JeanNiBee]

Hmmm...

Don't want to start an Anti MS fight, but they release more buggy software than anyone.

Also you do realise that Microsoft licences the Sybase engine to create MS-Sql, that's why it's called SQL Server. ("SQL Server" is a licenses trademark of Sybase corporation).



True though there's not a 'big' difference with the big guns, that is until you get into some SERIOUS transactions numbers like you see in high Tx environments like OLTP farms.

I've seen Oracle die horribly and Sybase save then day when it came to runnning our servers at the last company we worked for. (We processed professional sports statistics 'live').. baseball, hockey, football, basketball you name it we did it.

They actually went FROM Oracle TO Sybase as the performance (Even with Oracle getting involved to help) was terrible. One HA server system later, almost 0 downtime and no transaction lag.



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[sybaseguru]

guys,

Thanks for your comments. I believe Sybase is fighting back. The latest release 12.5.0.3 is packed with new functionality. See Sybase site

[URL unfurl="true"]http://sybooks.sybase.com/onlinebooks/group-as/asg12501e/irnewfun/@ebt-link;pt=532?target=%25N%13_623_START_RESTART_N%25[/URL]

Sybase ASE 12.5.0.3 also scored the highest number of TPC of any RDBMS on Linux (see

http://www.sybase.com).

Sybase is fighting back. I am a UNIX person and I believe that Windows is not really for mission critical applications, so know or care little about MSSQL. I am also familiar with Oracle (member of both Oracle 8i and 9i forums). If you think of Oracle and compare it with Sybase, Oracle is unnecessary complicated and over-engineered. Besides all the rhetoric that you hear from Oracle, it struggles to do simple things like backups properly. But I will be interested in your opinion as well.

 

[JeanNiBee]

Yes

This new version looks like it shut me up rather quick. heheh... answers all the bugs/problems I have with previous Linux versions.

Say goodbye to Mysql, say hello (once again) to Sybase.



Just as an aside, I have faith that Sybase will live in the future of development, so much so I am starting to study for my ASE 12.5 certifications. I've also made an official request to be moved from development to Sybase DBA group at my work in an effort to get more involved in it's future.

I suggest that anyone who has faith in Sybase get involved in the 'ISUG' (International Sybase Users Group). It's fairly cost effective especially from what they give you in return for your membership.

(ISUG newsletter pays for itself with the subscription).

Cheers all.



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[sybaseguru]

Interesting to hear all this.

Guys, if you want to get more involved in Sybase's future, try joining the following discussion group.

http://www.isug.com/sybase-product-future

 

[JeanNiBee]

Hey Guru

Are you a member of isug?


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[sybaseguru]

Yes I am. I am also the chariman of Sybase future forum. This forum includes the ISUG president, membership director, technical director, Rob Verchuur, the guy you bought the ASE reference from, Ed Barlow and many other senior engineers from Sybase.

 

[JeanNiBee]

Wow

Very nice. Keep up good work.

I am also a member of ISUG although more as a lurker then anything else. But I do promote the product(s) and try and stay as on top of the technology as I possibly can.



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[qyllr]

hello,

just wanted to share what fellow sybase dbas are doing...

i recently went to sybase training... and the majority of the class attendees are jumping ship and going with db2...

as for myself i find myself in a db2 project... as far as my area which is washington, dc... i'm seeing a brighter future for db2...

cheers,
q.

 

[sybaseguru]

q,

what industry are you in as a DBA and why do you think people seeing better future with DB2 compared to Sybase?

 

[qyllr]

hello,

i was financial with sec... now with a consulting firm doing govt. projects... majority of the projects are using db2 and/or oracle... a good number of them came from sybase...

as i mentioned, people i've worked with and gone to training have expressed changing to db2... this is merely an observation...

as to the general shift to db2 i can't explain the phenomenon... perhaps you can... i just find myself along with this shift...

q.

 

[dbalearner]

Very interesting discussion. I thouroughly enjoy it. I am a fan of both Sybase and Oracle and I am worried that Microsoft may win the day!

 

[markmar1]

Talking with other DBAs and tech folks who are migrating towards DB2 world, they usually tell me something like this:
(granted, my explanation is at 10000ft level, but usually are off the cuff discussions)

Oracle - They tend to buy into your company by providing a very discounted price, but once they are entrenched, they hit you with the real pricing.

Sybase - Lets face it. I do not think Sybase ever overcame the System 10 release fiasco in regards to marketing. Even though I am firm believer in Sybase, there marketing has been nothing short of terrible from when I was there during the 4.9.2 days til even now. Good product, but upper mgmt dont see it since they work at the 100K ft level.

Mysql - Well, support isnt there, and not many large companies are ready to give into freeware yet for enterprise solution. but who knows, Linux is getting there.

MS-SQL - Its Microsoft. Many tech mngrs seem to have been bitten by high costs of upgrading just the MS product suites in general, so they hesitate. I also hear that most tech managers rather stay with Unix side of world for core applications.

DB2 - Alot of people seem to have started to go this way, especially since its is running on midlevel unix based machines. Talking with friends at places like Siebel, and they are contemplating (if not already) trying to get customers to use DB2 instead of Oracle.

Well, not sure if any of this makes sense, but it is what I hear on the streets...

 

[sybaseguru]

markmar1,

Many thanks for your input. I still think if Sybase hists Linux at the right time (has scored highest TPC of any RDBMS on Linux) it might get popular. Also pound for pound it is still a nice product but lousy sales/amrketting and senior management.

 

[jims2321]

I find that Sybase's future is probably limited to the portable database area (ASA), I have worked with Sybase for over 5 years, and had to deal constantly with the 'Next release will provide that feature'. The truth of the matter, is Sybase has been behind the technology curve for the past 4 years, and is constantly playing catch up. Our company has placed all sybase systems in containment and is starting to replace them with DB2 or Oracle, when the ROI is justified.

The simple fact is that DB2 or Oracle delivers the technology that businesses need now, not next release. With the latest versions of DB2 UDB and Oracle 10g; Sybase is even further behind the technology race, and Sybase certainly lacks the money to play catch up. My hunch is to look for Micro$oft to buy out Sybase in the next year or two for the replication technology.

Jim

 

[sybaseguru]

Jim,

good points. But have a look ASE 12.5.1 out next Month (and 12.5.0.3 with multiple tempdbs out already). They will give a hell of a run to Oracle and others. I work with Oracle as well and even 9i compared to ASE 12.5.1 is weak. FYI, ASE (12.5.0.3) scored the highest TPC for any RDBMS on Linux. I do not know about DB2, but I do know that Oracle is losing its market shares. Surprising Sybase is picking up chiefly because of its flagship Replication Server. It may be good if MS buys Sybase and makes an ingorganic move into Linux Market.

 

[JeanNiBee]

I would have thought the HA services would be one heck of a selling point for Sybase.

It saved our life at my last contract. Oracle couldn't handle our transactions but a decent HA Farm saved gthe day.


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