The BIG picture.

[TiteLoop]

Hello all,
I've just set up my first site and have a couple questions. I can't e-magine that any questions I'll ask haven't been answered a zillion times.. So before I ask, is there any place you know of that has a sorta, kinda, overview of how Google works with respect to crawling/spyders/ranking/cataloging/etc/etc?

Sort of a synopsis of it all?

Once upon a time...

Thanks.

 

[ChrisHirst]

There are lots of place that like to second guess what the latest "secret" tricks are to the SE ranking algo. The unfortunate thing is the algo changes on a regular basis, so you are then left with the fact that you have to start again and redo your pages to suit the latest changes.

The best way is to forget the algo chasing and build a site that ALL the SEs want, a site built with visitors in mind NOT the search engines. It does work and it will give long term rankings that outlast the vagiaries of the search engine updates, one that is not subject to the spikes and troughs of the algo reliant one.
A little story from Scottie Claiborne, The Hungry Little Spider and this is the Tips for Newbies thread at HighRankings, all common sense SEO.




Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Mike Lewis]

Chris,

May I jump in? You said:

The best way is to forget the algo chasing and build a site that ALL the SEs want, a site built with visitors in mind NOT the search engines.

As a long-time lurker in this forum, I've seen you make that point many times. I believe it's excellent advice, and I've been following it myself -- with good results. Thank you for that.

But I'm curious ... if we should build our sites for visitors rather than search engines, how do search engine consultants make a living?

Mike



__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

My sites:
Visual FoxPro (www.ml-consult.demon.co.uk)
Crystal Reports (www.ml-crystal.com)

 

[damber]

But I'm curious ... if we should build our sites for visitors rather than search engines, how do search engine consultants make a living?

... unfortunately by chasing the algo and providing short term fixes, necessitating the continued use of these people to keep a site in a reasonable position... hopefully. The result could be that your site is blacklisted for improper and unethical methods, just because an SEO 'consultant' is trying to fool the search engine into thinking the content is more useful than it is. Or, if you're lucky pop into the top 100 results every now and then for a short period.

If you think about the objective of the SE's being to provide their users with the most relevant and useful links, they spend a lot of their time ensuring that these methods are not effective - hence the continual changes to the algo - but they will always try to retain the method for identifying truly useful and relevant sites. So aiming at this facet of the algo is more likely to provide long term results. (you could consider this algo chasing, as it is part of the algorithm, but it is the part that stands still somewhat, so you don't need to do much chasing other than doing what is useful to your visitors..)

So, really, most SEO 'consultants' are just a cheap fix, like putting sticky tape on the cracks of a badly built hull of a boat.. sure it will last for a short time, but inevitably the boat will sink. Build a good solid hull and maintain it for seaworthyness and you'll stay afloat....

I suppose many make their living the same way that pyramid schemes make money.. by bluffing their way through for a short period of time.. cheating only ever pays in the short term, if at all.

Don't get me wrong, there are a few (very few) that are actually SEO consultants rather than SEO 'consultants' - and give you real advice that is tangibly beneficial, but most just want a quick win and cheat their way to that end.

A smile is worth a thousand kind words. So smile, it's easy!

 

[ChrisHunt]

One of these days I'm going to write an article on "SEO from first principles". Until then...

Search engines attempt to find usable, relevant pages for the keywords they're given. SEO is intended to make sure your page gets found.

There are things you can do (presumably inadvertantly) that will hide your useful content from SEs and push you down the list - for example excessive use of Javascript. It can take some (though not much) expertise to spot and correct these mistakes - and it's decidedly "white hat" SEO.

Where hats can get a little blacker is on the other side of the equation. SEs use algorithms that approximate to the role of a human researcher in assessing a page's relevance and usefulness in relation to a particular query. They're not perfect, and can be fooled. In the olden days they were pretty easily fooled - and it was relatively easy to disguise a useless page as a useful one. With each refinement of the algorithm it's become harder to effect that disguise.

Now, sooner or later you reach a point where it's less effort to produce a page that is useful than it is to disguise a page as a useful one. I think that point was passed some time ago. The trouble is that there's plenty of old advice sitting around on websites implying that if you put this in a meta tag, that in a page title, and sacrifice a goat every full moon you'll get to #1 on Google. You can also find plenty of snake oil salesmen who'll take your money to do it for you (though they usually charge extra for the goat thing).

Another point worth making is that it's pointless pursuing that #1 place on Google if your site isn't attractive/useful to the people that find it. They'll just reach for the back button and all your work will be wasted. Better to concentrate on making a good-for-people page (which spiders will like anyway).

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[Mike Lewis]

Chris,

Thanks for that clarification. It makes a lot of sense.

You said: One of these days I'm going to write an article on "SEO from first principles". Please do.

Mike



__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

My sites:
Visual FoxPro (www.ml-consult.demon.co.uk)
Crystal Reports (www.ml-crystal.com)

 

[TiteLoop]

Guys... This is interesting and I understand what you are saying and as that great indian character in Josey Whales kept saying, "I will endevour to persevere" with regard to keeping my Site true to the visitor.

ummm okay well then one of my questions is:

When I do a mysite.com in Google the returned infomation is 90% wrong. It returns:


Welcome to mysite.com. Search Suggestions. telephone systems · phone systems · computer systems · embedded systems · ink cartridge



The words "ink cartridges, telephone systems, phone systems" NEVER appear ANYWHERE in my site.

AND Welcome to mysite.com seems awful lame.

A YAHOO search returns exactly what I want. This being the stuff I put in my metafile area.

Why is google seemingly inventing stuff and ignoring the meta-stuff?

How do I get google to at least use the correct information?

 

[ChrisHunt]

What's your site's URL?

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[ChrisHirst]

Site URL would be very useful.

BUT I would take a look at the title for your sites listing in DMOZ, You may just find that it matches.



Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[TiteLoop]

Oh roger that!

http://www.flaminsystems.com

YAHOO "flaminsystems.com" gives:

zero foot print PID, PID controllers, PID control, temperature control, hockeyPID, hockey PID, PID, pid, controllers, embedded, embedded controls, custom electronics, consulting, consulting services, electronics, design, embedded design, ...

Which is correct!

Google gives:
flam systems. ... Welcome to flaminsystems.com. Search Suggestions. telephone systems ·
phone systems · computer systems · embedded systems · ink cartridge ...

Which is ummm... poppycock!

I don't see it in DMOZ..

 

[johnwm]

I notice that your site has a couple of 302 redirects on first load. You also say that this is a new site. Is there a chance that this is a 'second-hand' domain name, and google hasn't updated yet? I don't see any incoming links to your site, so google isn't likely to revisit your site very often.

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first.
'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'
Drive a Steam Roller

 

[TiteLoop]

Thx johnwm;

This is one of those sites that you start with their URL then switch to yours when you decide to.

May I ask how you see the 302s and know that there are no incoming links?

 

[ChrisHirst]

Boy are you going to have problems.

1/ a 302 redirect from the domain name.

2/ javascript navigation and no text alternative

3/ no titles at all

You need a major rethink on the site and a serious injection of optimising if you expect any results from SEs.

There is also a style sheet in the body of each page. This won't cause any problems for SEs but is certainly poor coding and makes me wonder what else may be wrong with the code.

The SERP you see will be proably from an earlier version of your home page. I see a hosting Co "coming soon" page.


Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[ChrisHunt]

All I see at

http://www.google.com/search?q=flaminsystems.com

is

Coming Soon...
This domain name was recently registered at register.com.

I'm guessing that last time they visited they saw a parked domain page - one of those with a yahoo-like set of links off it.

I don't know why you're so happy with the result you're getting with Yahoo - it looks like a random pile of keywords to me, a couple of proper sentences about your company and what it does would be more likely to attract people.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[TiteLoop]

ChrisHirst;
Okay... Hey! It's a first shot... What can I say.

Again I ask how do you see 302's ???!


ChrisHunt;
All I see at

http://www.google.com/search?q=flaminsystems.com

is...

I don't get it. With exactly that link I get:

flaminsystems.com
flam systems. ... Welcome to flaminsystems.com. Search Suggestions. telephone systems ·
phone systems · computer systems · embedded systems · ink cartridge ...
www.flaminsystems.com/

 

[ChrisHirst]

To see the server response codes I use WebBug

The different results between Google searches are a factor of the many datacentres that Google have. You are looking at one, we are looking at another.

Ok, to kickstart the learning process, start here Tips for newbies


Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[TiteLoop]

ChrisHirst; Thanks for the info. I'm off to read "Tips for newbies".