Taking over a site

[MelissaBerrett]

We are looking at bringing our website in house to maintain. I have little experience, but have talked to the webmaster and languages used are HTML, CSS, Javascript. The admin tools are done with PDP and MySQL. The only programs used area a plain text editor for the code, and Photoshop for the graphic.
How hard it it to maintain a site? What software do I need to purchase to get going? A little guidance would be much appreciated. The website is

http://www.avamere.com.

Thanks!

 

[onpnt]

well, apart from some javascript menu scripts the whole site looks like one big image. should be a breeze making small adjustments and such.

to maintain a site really is not very hard to do. the creation is usually the step that most have a hard time to overcome.

http://www.textpad.com

is enough for any code changes that need to be made. I cringe at the thought of something like FrontPage etc. being used and seeing as it doesn't look like the site was created with any tool such as that I would stay completely away from trying to incorpurate one into it now as that would jsut cause problems.

hope that helps a bit _______________________________________________
[sub]{ str = "sleep is good for you. sleep gives you the energy you need to function";
ptr = /sleep/gi;Nstr = str.replace(ptr,"coffee"alert(Nstr); }[/sub]
_______________________________________________
for the best results to your questions: FAQ333-2924
has you're questio

 

[tanderso]

How hard it is to maintain a site depends entirely on your experience and skill in doing so. For a professional, maintaining a site such as yours would be a breeze, hardly requiring any effort at all. In fact, my company generally maintains sites such as that for $40/month fixed rate. However, for someone unfamiliar with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, it is entirely possible that you could do sigificant damage to the site by introducing errors and poor coding, or possibly bring the site down completely if you do not have a mastery over FTP and file permissions, etc.

If you intend to do it yourself, or have someone else who is not a professional do it, then I highly suggest some basic classes in HTML and JavaScript, without an emphasis on any particular editors such as Dreamweaver or Frontpage, which you want to avoid. You will also need some knowledge of how to use Photoshop (a copy of which you'll have to buy for $600) if you intend to add or edit any photos or other graphical elements on your site. And if you want to modify any of the CGI scripts, then you'll need to learn a programming language and probably structured query language to modify your database.

If you do not have a sincere interest in learning these skills and investing the time necessary to do so, then I strongly advise outsourcing your website maintenance. I've seen many sites deteriorate after an amateur using Microsoft Word, for example, tries to maintain them thinking that clicking around in a WYSIWYG editor is sufficient. That logic is comparable to trying to fix your furnace because you are confident in your ability to turn valves. There's a reason that people spend four years and $60k+ to get a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science.

My intention is not to scare you (well, maybe a little, for your own good), but to let you know that there's a lot involved in successfully maintaining a website, particularly with CGI and a database. There are people who manage to pick up the basics without any formal training, and even become adequate at it. However, these people are usually very committed and spend incredible amounts of time with self-learning. And still they do not have the breadth of knowledge necessary to tackle all aspects of a website. Most people take the task too lightly, and then they get into trouble.

So, to conclude, you should either get the training necessary to do it yourself (at which point you would probably be better off marketing your services to others), or else hire someone who has the training already. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[MelissaBerrett]

Well, I spent the 60K on the bachelors degree in computer information systems, but never have programmed in HTML, CSS, or Javascript. I also have never linked a DB to a website, and used WS_FTP minimally. I think I could pick this up pretty easily considering my education, I just don't want to have to spend a lot of time on it, as I AM the IT department at my company, and you can imagine the headaches. I have always had the website outsourced to save me time. Time spent into it, what do you think?

 

[onpnt]

I can't imagine that site taking more then a hour if that a week to maintain. I would do it to save the money for the most reason.
-everything envolving the DB will take the longest to get down. but with your education I'm sure data managment was in there somewhere and how relationships between multiple resources work.
-html will take no time at all getting the hang of. jsut keep a reference on hand for the basic tags etc..
-javascript is syntax irritating
that will be the only thing you need to gt down besides how the different objects in a page refer to each other.

all in all, with Tek-Tips on your side this should be a smooth ride _______________________________________________
[sub]{ str = "sleep is good for you. sleep gives you the energy you need to function";
ptr = /sleep/gi;Nstr = str.replace(ptr,"coffee"alert(Nstr); }[/sub]
_______________________________________________
for the best results to your questions: FAQ333-2924
has you're questio

 

[Wullie]

tanderso

There are people who manage to pick up the basics without any formal training, and even become adequate at it. However, these people are usually very committed and spend incredible amounts of time with self-learning. And still they do not have the breadth of knowledge necessary to tackle all aspects of a website.

Try not to generalise when speaking about people that have not been formally certified. Just because you have spent money on a degree does not in any way mean that you are better than someone who doesn't have a degree.

I have had no formal training in this field at all, yet I currently manage to run my own business and do very well in competing with larger businesses where all the staff are trained.

In a two year period, (yes, that's right, 2 years) I have managed to pick up the following subjects:

HTML
DHTML
CSS
SSI
Perl
Basic PHP
Coldfusion
Javascript
MySQL
Apache
Graphic Editing
Some Flash
Search Engine Opt.

Now, I might not be able to do everything in these languages but I can always accomplish the tasks that I need to. If I stumble across something that I can't do, I learn it. I have also never used a WYSIWYG editor.

You will know that not everyone who posts here are newbies or self-taught. I see many basic questions from people that are certified in a programming language and I also see the same questions being answered by the self-taught users.

Have I spent a lot of time learning all this? I would be lying if I said no.

I am qualified in a trade not related to computing - I completed my full training and left college. After I left, I was rudely awakened when I hit the real world and realised than experience is what most employers are looking for.

Training provides you with no more knowledge than I could personally learn in the same time.

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.mailtosanta.co.uk

The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell

 

[tanderso]

Melissa, if you have the B.S., then by all means give it a go. You have the background necessary to pick up the required languages with online tutorials, assuming you already know a language such as C/C++ or Java. You should also have the OS, DB, and protocol knowledge not to screw things up royally, or at least the ability to figure out how to fix them again.

However, my advice is still outsourcing, as I know how much time it takes to be a one-person team. You could easily spend as much time maintaining the website as you do on your other duties, or even more if you're also trying to learn as you go. With outsourcing so inexpensive, I don't see the advantage to trying to add this to your own responsibilities.

Wullie, in your argument, you have corroborated what I said. It took you two years to learn the skills necessary for basic web development, but still not a mastery (as you admitted), and certainly not the in-depth background that some aspects of maintenance require. For someone who already has full-time responsibilities like Melissa, I could not in good conscience recommend that she do this herself unless prepared to put in lots of overtime. The benefits do not outweigh the costs. Just buying Photoshop alone could pay for 6 - 15 months of maintenance. And the time saved... priceless. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[MelissaBerrett]

Thank you all for the great imput, I'm am still debating on what I will do. If I do decide to outsource, what are some good options? The guy we have now, (I just found out), is basically ripping off the company. Thanks! Also, besides photoshop, (the $whopper), What other programming tools would be recommended, and some pricing? Thanks again!

 

[Wullie]

tanderso

What I was commenting on was the following:

And still they do not have the breadth of knowledge necessary to tackle all aspects of a website.

Amasingly, I can tackle all aspects that I need to which is all I need to know. Information that I might know but will never use is pointless.

but still not a mastery (as you admitted), and certainly not the in-depth background that some aspects of maintenance require.

How long have you been working or studing in this field? Did you know everything there was to know after 2 years of training? Certified or not, you have no advantage over me to gain the knowledge or to broaden what you already know.

I can whole heartedly say that I can easily maintain a website, in fact I actually have many maintenance contracts just now and have no problems with them. Just because you are certified does not in any way mean you are better at that subject than anybody who is not.

And as for a mastery in the subjects, can you honestly say that you know everything there is to know about any programming language? I would be very suprised to get any answer other than no to that question. Take a look at the list above, are you completely fluent in every one of those and nothing would make you refer back to the manuals or seek help by any other means?

As for the graphics programs, why does it have to be Photoshop? Gimp (

http://www.gimp.org

)is free and will do most basic tasks that PS does and also some things that PS can't do. Maintaining or even building a website requires no capital at all unless you are maintaining a site designed in flash etc.

In the end, think of all the years that you took to get this far, then think about what I already know after 2 years. What will I know when I have been programming for the amount of time you have?

Moral of this story: Think twice before you jump to conclusions and assume that because you are certified, you know everything there is to know and are better than anyone who is not certified. If you believe that, you are sadly mistaken.

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.mailtosanta.co.uk

The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell

 

[onpnt]

hey, I have the certifications and degrees and I still don't know anything you have to be ignorent to say you do in this field

MelissaBerrett
There are free downloads I believe for just about every in regards to web development tools out there. things like dreamweaver etc.. all have trial versions for about a month to use. the prices for these range form a few hundred to full enterprise versions for up to $600/$700 I think. don't quote me on that, I do all my work in a text editor but I have downloaded trial versions for future reference in possibly purchasing them.

Like wullie state, there are all kinds of free editors out there to though. coffeecup one that comes to mind.

http://www.coffeecup.com/

I believe this one is still free.

_______________________________________________
[sub]{ str = "sleep is good for you. sleep gives you the energy you need to function";
ptr = /sleep/gi;Nstr = str.replace(ptr,"coffee"alert(Nstr); }[/sub]
_______________________________________________
for the best results to your questions: FAQ333-2924
has you're questio

 

[tanderso]

Melissa,

I recommend open-source tools, such as GIMP, as Wullie suggested. Apache, linux, MySQL, etc. If you are familiar with linux, I suggest that as a workstation too. I use gFTP, Nedit, Eterm, GIMP, and Mozilla. I only use Windows as a test platform to make sure everything works across multiple browsers, especially IE. But if you're going with Windows as a workstation, then just use notepad or textpad, WS_FTP, etc. Photoshop is the "standard", but GIMP is more than sufficient if you're willing to live on the edge (less support, more independent problem-solving). Web development is more about skill with programming, design, and debugging than using the latest, most expensive tool.

If you decide to outsource, then look for a company with a good track record and inexpensive fees (but not cheap work). Maybe someone local would be advantageous if you have server equipment on-site, but it is generally not required. Get references.

The way my company structures maintenance is that for $40/month, you get bug fixes, software patches, minor text and graphic changes, and consultation by email, instant messager, or phone concerning just about any question you could think of. For major overhauls, you'd need a development contract though. You have to decide what services you need, and see if your provider can tailor your contract (and fee) to your needs.

Most of my clients do not actually need any website maintenance every month, but they'll often ask about virus software, spam filters, online marketing, hosting or payment processor issues, email issues (full mailboxes, new accounts, etc), and other internet related questions and advice. On some months, a new browser version will come out and break something, or someone will uncover a new bug, or they'll have a permission problem, or maybe they'll add new data to the database which will require adding a new table or row and tweaking their software, or they'll want to do a special sale that requires changed functionality, or they'll do an email campaign, or they'll renew their SSL cert and need it changed on their site, or they'll just change the text on their homepage now and then. None of these things usually requires more than an hour at a time if you've done them a thousand times before. That's why it is easy to justify a fairly low fee. However, for someone unfamiliar with one of these fixes, it could take between hours and weeks to research it and get it done. Also, every now and then, you might get hit with a worm or hacker or power failure or something else unexpected, and you'll need to get up and running again quickly. In that case, setting up from scratch might be more than you bargained for having to do on your own. It's always nice to have your own personal web expert to bounce stuff off of or rely on in an emergency. Having the website maintenance contract is like having car insurance and a friendly mechanic, even if you are mechanically inclined yourself.


Wullie,

My intention was not to insult you or anyone else. I'm glad that you are a quick self-study and have pride in your accomplishments. However, you are the exception, not the norm. Also, I think your confidence may be based on limited experience.

> Amasingly, I can tackle all aspects that I need to which is all I need to know. Information that I might know but will never use is pointless.

Unfortunately, that sounds a lot like the attitude of someone who hasn't gone through the education. I can't tell you how many times I thought to myself in school that I would never use this information. Ultimately, that is a very dangerous philosophy. What do you know about race conditions, big-O analysis of algorithms, deadlocks, memory allocation, binary and hexadecimal arithmatic, object-oriented programming, pointers and references, finite automata, entity relationships, lexical and dynamic scope, recursion, sorts and searches, internet protocols, public key encryption, benchmarking, operating systems, etc., etc.? There is a difference between a "technician" who can ask questions about how it is done and then repeat it, and an "engineer" who can come up with solutions and debug logical errors and produce efficient code, and it is in respect to their difference in fundamental knowledge on which to draw. Any team should be composed of at least one "educated" engineer and some "knowledgeable" technicians. You may be able to use the Tek-Tips community or other online resources as your engineer in some cases, but in other cases, you may be confounded with nowhere to turn. It will also take you much longer to do it this way, and you probably won't produce the most efficient result either.

>Certified or not, you have no advantage over me to gain the knowledge or to broaden what you already know.

It is certainly true that most technical knowledge is acquired by experience rather than formal education, and anyone can obtain experience given the proper resources and practice. However, a formal education gives you knowledge and experience with the underlying concepts which allow you to paint the big picture instead of focusing on individual elements. Thus, it is far easier to pick up a new programming language, for example, if you understand programming languages in general, and the same is true for other concepts as well. Moreover, no matter how much experience you have with specific technology, you will never be prepared to deal with problems involving subtle logic errors or come up with truly unique solutions. Sometimes the depth of a bug goes below simple syntax.

> And as for a mastery in the subjects, can you honestly say that you know everything there is to know about any programming language? I would be very suprised to get any answer other than no to that question. Take a look at the list above, are you completely fluent in every one of those and nothing would make you refer back to the manuals or seek help by any other means?

Mastery does not mean that you have memorized all of the syntax of a programming language, or every feature of some software. It means that you understand how it works and why it works, and how to accomplish what you need with it, and how to debug problems with it. As an analogy, you don't need to have a huge vocabulary to write a compelling letter. As long as you understand the components which make a letter compelling, you can use a thesaurus and dictionary as a reference. Alternatively, you could have a huge vocabulary, and still be unable to write a decent letter.

> Moral of this story: Think twice before you jump to conclusions and assume that because you are certified, you know everything there is to know and are better than anyone who is not certified. If you believe that, you are sadly mistaken.

I don't think that I am personally better than anyone else. However, I do believe that, as a Computer Scientist, I am better able to manage computer technology than someone who went through a 1-2 year certificate program or is self-taught. Unfortunately, if you believe that, as a self-taught technician, you are able to handle the depth and breadth of web-related programming and maintenance as someone with a 4-year degree from a decent school, you are deceiving yourself. That's not to say that you can't put in a good effort and handle most common problems, and even research the hell out of something until it is solved. But jumping to the conclusion that the base of fundamental knowledge obtained with a Bachelor's degree is irrelevant is beyond foolish.

I wish you luck with your business and hope you avoid running into any problems beyond the common. However, I advise that you read about some fundamental computing concepts though. You have a healthy enough interest that you should be able to plow through text books without a problem. But no matter how obscure you think some piece of knowledge might be, get acquainted with it anyway, as you never know when you'll need to use it.

Now at this point, we've dragged on this tangent too far. Maybe you want to take it to the "water cooler" forum to discuss more? Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[Wullie]

Hi mate,

I don't see why the water cooler forum would suit this thread more than the web designers forum, after all, this is the type of question I would expect in a web designers forum, the actual language specific questions should be in the specific forum for that question.

Unfortunately, that sounds a lot like the attitude of someone who hasn't gone through the education. I can't tell you how many times I thought to myself in school that I would never use this information. Ultimately, that is a very dangerous philosophy.

I never said that I don't need to know the things I do but don't use at present, I said Information I know I will never use is pointless. You cannot tell me that your whole degree related to information that I would ever need in web design. I know very well that things I pick up but don't need just now may save hours or days of research tommorrow.

However, a formal education gives you knowledge and experience with the underlying concepts which allow you to paint the big picture instead of focusing on individual elements. Thus, it is far easier to pick up a new programming language, for example, if you understand programming languages in general, and the same is true for other concepts as well. Moreover, no matter how much experience you have with specific technology, you will never be prepared to deal with problems involving subtle logic errors or come up with truly unique solutions. Sometimes the depth of a bug goes below simple syntax.

You assume that only certified individuals know the inner workings of languages and can pick up new languages easily, that could not be further from the truth.

I stared learning Coldfusion about 2 weeks ago. I picked up that language easily and am now anwering questions in the CF forum where people using the language for years still do not know how to do certain things. I picked it up that fast only because I know other programming languages. I am not saying that I know everything about it, but I do know enough to keep on expanding my knowledge rather than getting stuck on every hurdle along the way.

Mastery does not mean that you have memorized all of the syntax of a programming language, or every feature of some software. It means that you understand how it works and why it works, and how to accomplish what you need with it, and how to debug problems with it.

I was replying to the context that you used the word mastery.

I said:

Now, I might not be able to do everything in these languages but I can always accomplish the tasks that I need to. If I stumble across something that I can't do, I learn it

You replied

It took you two years to learn the skills necessary for basic web development, but still not a mastery (as you admitted),

Either you term mastery to mean that I know everything about the language or you don't, you are contradicting your previous comment. In the original context that you used, you are not a master either then if you don't know everything there is to know.

Also, saying that it took 2 years for me to learn basic web development is going a bit far. The languages that I know and the breath of knowledge I have in them are not just to the standard of a basic web developer as you so kindly put it. I also did not sit for 2 years and then suddenly understand them all one day, it happens as a gradual process and you can not say that you learnt everything you know in a few days.

Unfortunately, if you believe that, as a self-taught technician, you are able to handle the depth and breadth of web-related programming and maintenance as someone with a 4-year degree from a decent school, you are deceiving yourself

Whatever you can learn in a classroom about programming, I can find in books or on the Internet, so saying that only a certified individual can do certain things or debug a problem easily is misleading. You are in this "bubble" that assumes I have no idea what it is like to be certified in a trade, I can tell you right now that I do know what it is like to be on both sides of the fence.

I am not saying that I will know everything that you do in years to come, I don't need to. I run a web design company so I fail to see where the other aspects come into play. To complete my job in the best manner possible, I need to be able to design the websites that my clients require, effectively manage the servers that the sites are hosted on and be able to cross any other hurdle that appears, a lot of the other subjects that you studied would be pointless to me as I would never need to use them.

However, I advise that you read about some fundamental computing concepts though

Once again, you jump to the conclusion that because I am self-taught, I have no broad knowledge of any subject and only know the syntax of some code. The above sentence implies that you are talking down to me, that is why I take offense from your statements.

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.mailtosanta.co.uk

The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell

 

[MelissaBerrett]

Thanks for the info, Onpnt you gave me some confidence!

 

[onpnt]

glad to here this helped out a bit.

good luck in what ever you decide _______________________________________________
[sub]{ str = "sleep is good for you. sleep gives you the energy you need to function";
ptr = /sleep/gi;Nstr = str.replace(ptr,"coffee"alert(Nstr); }[/sub]
_______________________________________________
for the best results to your questions: FAQ333-2924
has you're questio

 

[tanderso]

Wullie, I suggested moving this tangent because we are hijacking Melissa's thread with it. If you want to start a thread about this in Web Designers, then that's fine, but I figure Water Cooler is a more appropriate place to talk about formal education vs self-learning in respect to technical fields in general.

I'm not "talking down" to you any more than I talk down to anyone else in these forums when they don't understand a concept I am trying to convey. I'm trying to be helpful, not offensive. But the truth of the matter is that without sticking to a strict Computer Science curriculum (either self-taught -- which is unlikely -- or class-taught), then you simply cannot handle the full range of problems that a degreed individual can. If you want to take offense to that statement, then I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Also, I made no contradiction in the term mastery, but you fail to differentiate syntax and semantics. I thought my analogy was enough to make that point. Furthermore, the skills you listed indicate only basic web development capability. Perhaps you are a good designer and can implement pages to upload to the server, but from what you've described, I cannot infer that you can do much in the way of complex interactions such as ecommerce and web services. I could be wrong, but that's just what I get from your previous posts.

Anyway, let's move this out of Melissa's thread. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[BigBadDave]

A degree makes no difference at all to how you can manage once you out in the "real world". At my company there is a "senior webmaster" with a degree in IT, but he knows nothing about server-side scripts or web server set-up or even network adminstration. I have been working in IT for only 2 years and I allready know far more than nearly everybody in my company. Alot of employers even prefer "self-taught" employees, because they have shown the willingness in the subject and discipline to "self-study". Don't put down what you clearly know nothing about. Regards
David Byng

http://www.byngdesigns.co.uk

davidbyng@hotmail.com

 

[onpnt]

it doesn't matter if you have a degree, a bakers dozen of certifications, or self tought ......... and on and on.

it matters who the person is
Some people can program a ASP page to blow my mind and have never stepped into a school room,
some people can and have 8 years of education,
Some people can't do a thing for the life of them either way.

bottom line is it depends on the persons abilities to understand what they are doing. be it they have a degree in CS or have read a few tutorials online to get it.

hopefully that will end the subject.

tanderso
Wullie,
My intention was not to insult you or anyone else. I'm glad that you are a quick self-study and have pride in your accomplishments. However, you are the exception, not the norm. Also, I think your confidence may be based on limited experience.

that is insulting but more to the point please refrain from direct comments towards any member in such a way at Tek-Tips. That's not what it's all about
_______________________________________________
[sub]{ str = "sleep is good for you. sleep gives you the energy you need to function";
ptr = /sleep/gi;Nstr = str.replace(ptr,"coffee"alert(Nstr); }[/sub]
_______________________________________________
for the best results to your questions: FAQ333-2924

 

[tanderso]

I know exactly how self-taught individuals learn, as I am self-taught in many subjects, recently plumbing and carpentry among them. And I know that people will only learn as much as is necessary to produce a result, not enough to have a good understanding of the underlying principles, as schools will force you to learn. I've also had the pleasure to work with many self-taught people as well as formally educated people. The undeniable fact from this experience is that the formally educated people have a far greater depth and breadth of knowledge in the subject which those who are self-taught could spend their whole lives and never learn. And this knowledge is invaluable in both the quality and speed with which work is produced. As an amateur carpenter, I can nail together a house and the inspecter will grudgingly pass it, but it still won't be the quality craftsmanship you get from a decent professional, plus it will take a year instead of three weeks, and professionals would laugh at the inefficiency of some stupid solutions to easy problems.

This is probably the wrong place to be making this argument, as this is the haven of the self-taugh web developer. And I'm sorry that you take offense. But, personally, I believe that it is the ease of entry into this field that causes so many companies grief over their web presense. Anyone who buys Frontpage and creates a homepage thinks they are a web developer. And it is the result of this that I have to deal with when I'm called in to fix the problems, or when I'm underbid by someone who can't deliver. So I hope you understand my frustration.

This isn't to say that anyone on this forum is one of those people that makes an inefficient mess of code and calls it a website. However, to return to my initial point, just because you can turn a wrench doesn't mean you can repair a car. This is not directed at anyone in particular, but it is just a generic truth. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[Wullie]

to return to my initial point, just because you can turn a wrench doesn't mean you can repair a car.

Just because you have had 100 driving lessons doesn't mean you can drive that car either. Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.mailtosanta.co.uk

The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell

 

[moirakris]

Melissa,

I looked over your site and I think you should be able to tackle this ok. It's mainly info and not much interactive elements.

What sort of updates will you be making? If it is mainly the calander and job opening pages You may want to check into a Content Management System like they have at

http://www.interactivetools.com/products/

for quick updates. You can even find some cgi scripts for that as well, Check out

http://www.willmaster.com

under his site content section.

Melissa, don't let the debate going on concurrently in this post phase you from asking questions here, I think we have cabin fever from all the cold weather :: giggle:::
but I do have only one comment to add to it: If I was fortunate enough to have $60k I would go to school. Until then I will continue to teach myself lol.

Warmest Regards Moira
"Those that stop learning, stop living."