right now there is a dibute over weather or not a libary should use a fliter to block so internet conetent (pron. I am of the thinking if my kid can't get a playboy there why should be able to walk over to a computer and get to the same thing we already have filtering in library on the writren materal why not the web. So long and thanks for all the fish.
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sensorship 3
- Thread starter gunthnp
- Start date
While I agree with content filtering to keep kids from accessing Internet porn, part of me remains concerned about infringing anyone's rights. One of the best parts of living in the US is that we have the right to choose: what we do, what we read, what we look at. Many, many people, including several from my family, have fought and killed and died to preserve that right.
So, we remove the right of someone (kid or adult) to access adult content on the web. What's next?
I don't know that there is an easy solution for this one... - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
So, we remove the right of someone (kid or adult) to access adult content on the web. What's next?
I don't know that there is an easy solution for this one... - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
PhiloVance
Technical User
I think this will come down to just about the same as the porno laws, i.e., local views will prevail. I don't know how we can 'censor' a public library, which is supported by the entire tax base.
I've heard several solutions without filters:
1. Put the monitors in a public place, in full view of the librarians, clerks, patrons, whatever. This will provide it's own censorship.
2. Provide no removeable disk, like a floppy so a person could not download.
3. Provide an 'adult' section for serious work where access is restricted by age, and charge nominally for the service (5.00 an hour or so). These machines would have floppy's and printers for someone working on a research project.
Some or a combination of these might work, but I believe anyone dedicated enough could get around any of these restrictions. I have never heard anything good about the filters. They let things through they should block and block things that are not porno.
As Voyager1 said, there's no easy solution.
PhiloVance
Other hobbies, interests: Travel, Model RR (HO Gauge), Genealogy.
I've heard several solutions without filters:
1. Put the monitors in a public place, in full view of the librarians, clerks, patrons, whatever. This will provide it's own censorship.
2. Provide no removeable disk, like a floppy so a person could not download.
3. Provide an 'adult' section for serious work where access is restricted by age, and charge nominally for the service (5.00 an hour or so). These machines would have floppy's and printers for someone working on a research project.
Some or a combination of these might work, but I believe anyone dedicated enough could get around any of these restrictions. I have never heard anything good about the filters. They let things through they should block and block things that are not porno.
As Voyager1 said, there's no easy solution.
PhiloVance
Other hobbies, interests: Travel, Model RR (HO Gauge), Genealogy.
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- #4
Surely, there is an easy solution:
"The First Amendment tolerates a wide range of utterances. Whether in the field of obscenity or subversion... our constitutional philosophy is that mature people will pick and choose among speakers, writers and publishers, turning their backs on those ideas that are repulsive but suppressing none...."
The preceding quote has been taped to every monitor I have owned from 1984 to date. The paper is yellowed with age and the message is so persistent it becomes invisible for months at a time. Eventually, my eyes are drawn back to it and I am forced to contemplate the meaning.
These are words to live by.
Regarding youngsters: children under 16 should always be accompanied by adults while browsing the Internet. Children, 16 and older, should be advised that they can find much better pornography at the corner news stand.
Alt255@Vorpalcom.Intranets.com
"The First Amendment tolerates a wide range of utterances. Whether in the field of obscenity or subversion... our constitutional philosophy is that mature people will pick and choose among speakers, writers and publishers, turning their backs on those ideas that are repulsive but suppressing none...."
Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
The preceding quote has been taped to every monitor I have owned from 1984 to date. The paper is yellowed with age and the message is so persistent it becomes invisible for months at a time. Eventually, my eyes are drawn back to it and I am forced to contemplate the meaning.
These are words to live by.
Regarding youngsters: children under 16 should always be accompanied by adults while browsing the Internet. Children, 16 and older, should be advised that they can find much better pornography at the corner news stand.
Alt255@Vorpalcom.Intranets.com
I love the quote, indeed words to live by. This says to me that those who provide these types of materials have to right to do so, and that we, as thinking human beings, have the right to either "consume" it or not. Isn't that really what the first amendment is all about? The right to make our own decisions and choices?
I've always felt that the decision to partake of pornography or not is one of moral values. We give our children the tools to make their own decisions, and if we (as parents) have done our jobs, they will make the right ones. You cannot legislate morality.
Alt255: Your comment "Regarding youngsters: children under 16 should always be accompanied by adults while browsing the Internet" raises a question: do you have children? It is impossible to monitor what a child does 24x7, and there is too much out on the net that is good, wholesome, and entertaining to completely shut them out. If we over-restrict their use of the web, they will just do it at a friend's house, or at the library, or whatever. Also, if a youngster can't use the web until a parent is available, what does that say about trust?
Give your kids the tools to make good decisions. Then trust them. It worked for my 3.
Very interesting thread....... - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
I've always felt that the decision to partake of pornography or not is one of moral values. We give our children the tools to make their own decisions, and if we (as parents) have done our jobs, they will make the right ones. You cannot legislate morality.
Alt255: Your comment "Regarding youngsters: children under 16 should always be accompanied by adults while browsing the Internet" raises a question: do you have children? It is impossible to monitor what a child does 24x7, and there is too much out on the net that is good, wholesome, and entertaining to completely shut them out. If we over-restrict their use of the web, they will just do it at a friend's house, or at the library, or whatever. Also, if a youngster can't use the web until a parent is available, what does that say about trust?
Give your kids the tools to make good decisions. Then trust them. It worked for my 3.
Very interesting thread....... - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
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- #6
Hi:
Ok..here is the deal.
Sorry ALt255 your are wrong, some of the worlds greatest porn is now on the web. It can be viewed at ones convenience, often for free.
At one time I thought that children should be supervised while on the net. I now think, that this depends on the child and how one has raised them. My two daughters, both under 16 have no interest, yet, in porn or anything other then Discovery and Barbie Doll sites. My 14 yr old nephew, well thats another story. He is totally unsupervised on the net but he views the same stuff on the net that is on display at the seven eleven or the local liquor store. So whats the difference?
If we were all that concerned about morality and porn we would have a march on Wahington or burn a Bank of America branch down in protest.
I sometimes think that, although important, we worry to much about morality issues.
Most important issue here is the safeguarding of our Constitution and the freedom and rights that it provides us.
Cheers,
Ivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
Ok..here is the deal.
Sorry ALt255 your are wrong, some of the worlds greatest porn is now on the web. It can be viewed at ones convenience, often for free.
At one time I thought that children should be supervised while on the net. I now think, that this depends on the child and how one has raised them. My two daughters, both under 16 have no interest, yet, in porn or anything other then Discovery and Barbie Doll sites. My 14 yr old nephew, well thats another story. He is totally unsupervised on the net but he views the same stuff on the net that is on display at the seven eleven or the local liquor store. So whats the difference?
If we were all that concerned about morality and porn we would have a march on Wahington or burn a Bank of America branch down in protest.
I sometimes think that, although important, we worry to much about morality issues.
Most important issue here is the safeguarding of our Constitution and the freedom and rights that it provides us.
Cheers,
Ivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
- Thread starter
- #8
1st the 1st admin was not to protect porn but to portect our right to speak against the govermanet that was what the founding fathers had in mind. I agree the with the quote from alt255 that the 1st admen does its best good by being open in everway , but we are NOT talk about stop pron on the internet we are taklking about stoping it in the library. We take limt on our other rights: i can't shoot a gun where I want, I can't kill things as part of a relgion. I think having pron out there is a good test and only in theory a good fight for our rights which many of our friends and fathers have died for but i also beleve there is a time and a place and the puplic library(a place for enlightment and growth of wisdom) is not it.
because of the 1st admen we are able to have this area to speak I beleve we better server the our BILL OF RIGHTS by have open dission not by viewing porn in a library. So long and thanks for all the fish.
because of the 1st admen we are able to have this area to speak I beleve we better server the our BILL OF RIGHTS by have open dission not by viewing porn in a library. So long and thanks for all the fish.
There have been times when the works of William Shakespeare, Plato, Charles Darwin, Balzac, Virginia Woolf, Moses (too many to mention) have been banned from various public libraries to protect the public from ideas that were too controversial or spiritually harmful. Some of the great literature presented to today's high school students was considered "pornographic" only a few years ago.
I see the First Amendment, in part, as an attempt to preserve our knowledge, views and arts so they will remain available to the world citizens of the future. Public libraries are simply repositories of our past and present culture. Denying adult access to portions of that culture endangers the longevity of the remainder.
As repugnant as the notion might seem today, pornography could be considered a high art form in the very near future. The First Amendment asks only one thing: give every idea a chance for survival.
Aside from public libraries, can anybody think of a place better suited for this purpose?
Alt255@Vorpalcom.Intranets.com
I see the First Amendment, in part, as an attempt to preserve our knowledge, views and arts so they will remain available to the world citizens of the future. Public libraries are simply repositories of our past and present culture. Denying adult access to portions of that culture endangers the longevity of the remainder.
As repugnant as the notion might seem today, pornography could be considered a high art form in the very near future. The First Amendment asks only one thing: give every idea a chance for survival.
Aside from public libraries, can anybody think of a place better suited for this purpose?
Alt255@Vorpalcom.Intranets.com
- Thread starter
- #10
I agree that 1st admin is meet to perserve and for every idea to have a chance to be porven good or bad by every person.I agree that the library is a good store of are people BUT the key here is it IS NOT being stored here for the purpouse of wisdom because it is NOT being stored its a web browser when you go it is gone (for the use of later people) so We are talking about the here and now ONLY. At that piont I go back why don't you find Playboy's there now wouldn't that be a better from to perserve at lest then we kids would not get there hand on them. So long and thanks for all the fish.
Perhaps it could be said that each individual library or organization be left with the descision as to what to filter and what not to filter for its users.
No one is prohibbiting any web site, porno or otherwise from putting their info on the internet. So we have no violation of Constitutional Rights here. Anyone, child, man, women, lesbian, dwarf, or Martian can view these websites from the privacy of their own home. Coool.
I believe its up to each library, museum, or whatever organization to dispense whatever information it considers appropriate to its users. If the users don't like what information is or is not being made available then the users have some choices to excercise in the marketplace.
I think that a library is an appropriate place to filter out information that is not consistent with its mission of supporting learning and as a repository for wisdom and information.
The people of the community will ultimetly decide what they want to see or not see.
Its up to the market place to decide where porno should be viewed and stored, right now, this is happening in the privacy of ones home via the net, print, and video. Visual delights of a sexual flavor have been rewarded by the market place, recorded and documented for the last several thousand years. So we should not worry about it disappearing as an art form.
TTFN
Ivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
No one is prohibbiting any web site, porno or otherwise from putting their info on the internet. So we have no violation of Constitutional Rights here. Anyone, child, man, women, lesbian, dwarf, or Martian can view these websites from the privacy of their own home. Coool.
I believe its up to each library, museum, or whatever organization to dispense whatever information it considers appropriate to its users. If the users don't like what information is or is not being made available then the users have some choices to excercise in the marketplace.
I think that a library is an appropriate place to filter out information that is not consistent with its mission of supporting learning and as a repository for wisdom and information.
The people of the community will ultimetly decide what they want to see or not see.
Its up to the market place to decide where porno should be viewed and stored, right now, this is happening in the privacy of ones home via the net, print, and video. Visual delights of a sexual flavor have been rewarded by the market place, recorded and documented for the last several thousand years. So we should not worry about it disappearing as an art form.
TTFN
Ivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
- Thread starter
- #12
I agree with almost all of the opinions here except for these points....
I think the one point that has been missed in this post has been the limitations of the technology...
A independent Free Speech group tested severeal copies of this Porn blocking software, they found many lesbian rights, sex or womens abuse sites to be blocked, simply on the basis of key words like, sex, lesbian, etc... These sites were in the .org domain
I agree that it is probably best to have some type of filtering agent until a child reaches a certain age, or some type of parental approval agent. How to approach this without also infracting on the Free speech rights of a person is extremely hard
Perhaps working to make this software better would be a more viable solution, than allowing all content or the confused blocking that occurs now...
good discussion...
I think the one point that has been missed in this post has been the limitations of the technology...
A independent Free Speech group tested severeal copies of this Porn blocking software, they found many lesbian rights, sex or womens abuse sites to be blocked, simply on the basis of key words like, sex, lesbian, etc... These sites were in the .org domain
I agree that it is probably best to have some type of filtering agent until a child reaches a certain age, or some type of parental approval agent. How to approach this without also infracting on the Free speech rights of a person is extremely hard
Perhaps working to make this software better would be a more viable solution, than allowing all content or the confused blocking that occurs now...
good discussion...
Yes ackka...we tried a filtering agent on our home pc. Our guru's site, and I believe the Dalai Lama'a site were blocked because they had the word "love" in it.
A filtering block does not violate any Free Speech or rights of any person. AOL doesn't filter out all of sex releated and porno sites, it does filter out many of the sites associated with shooting of pistols and rifles. My free speech is not violated, I can view these sites outside of AOL and I am also free to set a porn, rifle, pistol , shooting web site or publication up myself.
At the home level, my wife and I are the filter for our children. While they are living at home and under 18 yrs og age, they have limited rights and limited freedom of speech.
Cheers,
Ivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
A filtering block does not violate any Free Speech or rights of any person. AOL doesn't filter out all of sex releated and porno sites, it does filter out many of the sites associated with shooting of pistols and rifles. My free speech is not violated, I can view these sites outside of AOL and I am also free to set a porn, rifle, pistol , shooting web site or publication up myself.
At the home level, my wife and I are the filter for our children. While they are living at home and under 18 yrs og age, they have limited rights and limited freedom of speech.
Cheers,
Ivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
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- #15
mrsurrender
Programmer
Voyager1 wrote:
> Give your kids the tools to make good decisions. Then trust them. It worked for my 3.
I live in Germany. Here You will find magazines like Playboy on every corner. And You will find nudes even in the biggest teenage magazines.
I don't think that pornography is right, but it is interesting how young people over here learn to deal with the presence of these things everywhere. How do they learn to survive in our world? Only if You "give your kids the right tools to make good decisions".
BTW: If you take a look at tv after midnight you will see a lot of bare flesh. Still it's interesting that all tv stations have gone backwards choosing to show less of cheap softcore. Why? Not because of reglementations or laws, but simply because people are over satiated (sp?) of it. May be in the US it still awakes too much interest.
---
Voyager1 also wrote:
> Many, many people, including several from my family, have fought and killed and died to preserve that right.
...and KILLED...?
Sorry, sir. Do I understand that right? To kill somebody is righteous to defend a right? How can you fight for something good, using something bad? (And I believe that the freedom of speech is something elementary good!) Oh, sorry, but I still believe that nobody should have a "right" to kill someone.
> Give your kids the tools to make good decisions. Then trust them. It worked for my 3.
I live in Germany. Here You will find magazines like Playboy on every corner. And You will find nudes even in the biggest teenage magazines.
I don't think that pornography is right, but it is interesting how young people over here learn to deal with the presence of these things everywhere. How do they learn to survive in our world? Only if You "give your kids the right tools to make good decisions".
BTW: If you take a look at tv after midnight you will see a lot of bare flesh. Still it's interesting that all tv stations have gone backwards choosing to show less of cheap softcore. Why? Not because of reglementations or laws, but simply because people are over satiated (sp?) of it. May be in the US it still awakes too much interest.
---
Voyager1 also wrote:
> Many, many people, including several from my family, have fought and killed and died to preserve that right.
...and KILLED...?
Sorry, sir. Do I understand that right? To kill somebody is righteous to defend a right? How can you fight for something good, using something bad? (And I believe that the freedom of speech is something elementary good!) Oh, sorry, but I still believe that nobody should have a "right" to kill someone.
mrsurrender
Interesting to here from a European perspective.
I have noticed in my travels that the US is probably one of the most "uptight" countries regarding sexuality. We here, particulary in LA are pretty immature in that regard.
Just an observation...people have been fighting and killing for the good...a cause... since the inception of Western Civilation. I think the Crusades is a great example. Also all of the wars and conflicts of the 20th Century.
I am glad the Japanese, Warren Buffet, and the Bush family are now figthing all of the wars in the economic venue and through the media. I now dont have to worry about father, sons, grandsons etc going off to war to get killed and can enjoy the finer things in life such as programming, shooting, and cheap bourbon.
So far off on tangents today...aplogies to all.
Ivan
In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
Interesting to here from a European perspective.
I have noticed in my travels that the US is probably one of the most "uptight" countries regarding sexuality. We here, particulary in LA are pretty immature in that regard.
Just an observation...people have been fighting and killing for the good...a cause... since the inception of Western Civilation. I think the Crusades is a great example. Also all of the wars and conflicts of the 20th Century.
I am glad the Japanese, Warren Buffet, and the Bush family are now figthing all of the wars in the economic venue and through the media. I now dont have to worry about father, sons, grandsons etc going off to war to get killed and can enjoy the finer things in life such as programming, shooting, and cheap bourbon.
So far off on tangents today...aplogies to all.
Ivan
In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?
Just do it!!
MrSurrender:
Please don't take my comments out of context. I'm talking about a long history of military service to this country (USA) in several wars. I'm not saying that killing is right, but in these situations it is either you or the guy shooting at you.
Believe me, I'd rather settle political differences on a soccer field.
So, yes: fought and killed and died to preserve my right to view or read adult material, to assemble in demonstration against whatever I choose, and to raise my children as I see fit. - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
Please don't take my comments out of context. I'm talking about a long history of military service to this country (USA) in several wars. I'm not saying that killing is right, but in these situations it is either you or the guy shooting at you.
Believe me, I'd rather settle political differences on a soccer field.
So, yes: fought and killed and died to preserve my right to view or read adult material, to assemble in demonstration against whatever I choose, and to raise my children as I see fit. - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
mrsurrender
Programmer
Sorry, Voyager1, for offending.
But I asked myself lots of times, what I would do, if it were just: Me or the guy shooting. The answer is not obvious to me.
(I'd rather go to a American Football game than watch soccer. Anyway...)
I wonder what You would do, if You lived in a country that would not grant You that good rights You mentioned. I know some people personally (!), who were arrested in Sibiria for tens of years, because they didn't want to give up their freedom of mind. I wonder what I had done...
Never stop thinking.
Siegfried.
But I asked myself lots of times, what I would do, if it were just: Me or the guy shooting. The answer is not obvious to me.
(I'd rather go to a American Football game than watch soccer. Anyway...)
I wonder what You would do, if You lived in a country that would not grant You that good rights You mentioned. I know some people personally (!), who were arrested in Sibiria for tens of years, because they didn't want to give up their freedom of mind. I wonder what I had done...
Never stop thinking.
Siegfried.
No offense was taken, Siegfried. Let's hope we never find ourselves in that position.
You asked "I wonder what You would do, if You lived in a country that would not grant You that good rights You mentioned ." Honestly, the issue of shoot or be shot is clearer to me; but I have never been in that situation. I have no idea how I would react to not having the rights I have been blessed with.
I hope you are not in that situation, yourself.
I agree with you on the football thing as well. Go Jaguars! - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
You asked "I wonder what You would do, if You lived in a country that would not grant You that good rights You mentioned ." Honestly, the issue of shoot or be shot is clearer to me; but I have never been in that situation. I have no idea how I would react to not having the rights I have been blessed with.
I hope you are not in that situation, yourself.
I agree with you on the football thing as well. Go Jaguars! - Bill
"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar
mrsurrender
Programmer
Thanks, Voyager1.
I am not in any situation "me or him shooting", thank God!
Take a look at MY favourite team over here:
Coming back to the issue of this thread: After thinking a while, I say, that it should be the right of the _user_ to switch any sites off, if he wants to. I am against controling by officials, what people are allowed to publish as long this goes along with the rights of the state the author lives in. (For example: In Germany it is forbidden to publish fascistic material in any way.)
I go for it and suggest that porno sites should have a META-key in it that easily shows what they are up to. So, everyone, who wants to be away from those sites can easily do so (and the porno industry wouldn't harm that!), and the others can faster find what they are looking for (what the porno industry would apreceate). If I have the rights over the key, I can prevent my children easily and still give everyone who doesn't want to be kept away from those sites an easy way to find them. Maybe we will then even get rid of those email-spamming.)
I am not in any situation "me or him shooting", thank God!
Take a look at MY favourite team over here:
Coming back to the issue of this thread: After thinking a while, I say, that it should be the right of the _user_ to switch any sites off, if he wants to. I am against controling by officials, what people are allowed to publish as long this goes along with the rights of the state the author lives in. (For example: In Germany it is forbidden to publish fascistic material in any way.)
I go for it and suggest that porno sites should have a META-key in it that easily shows what they are up to. So, everyone, who wants to be away from those sites can easily do so (and the porno industry wouldn't harm that!), and the others can faster find what they are looking for (what the porno industry would apreceate). If I have the rights over the key, I can prevent my children easily and still give everyone who doesn't want to be kept away from those sites an easy way to find them. Maybe we will then even get rid of those email-spamming.
)- Status