Selecting objects in AI-10 and gripsizes 1

[RLie]

I'm fearly new to Illustrator and come from Coreldraw, so please forgive me my ignorance....
I have two questions......

When I want to select a series of objects in CD i drag a rectangle around them, ensuring that other objects i don't want to select, are not completely within the rectangle (so this takes ONE mouseclick).

If I want to do the same in AI i cannot prevent other objects to be selected also if the selection rectangle crosses any part of them.
So my question is:
Is there a way in AI to select 100 small independant objects on top of 100 other big undependant objects without 101 mouseclicks?
(that is also without using layers or groups etc)

second question:
I Use a 1152x864 screen. With this screensize the grips on selected objects are very small and i often click next to them when i want to work fast. On a 800x600 screen they are much bigger and easier to catch but who wants to work on that screensize......
Is there a way in AI to increase the default gripsizes for selected object boundery boxes or node-points?

Thanks for any suggestions......

 

[askIllustrator]

First you'll want get in the habbit of keeping one finger on your control key at all times. You'll notice that all other tools change to one of the selectors when you hold the ctrl key down. There are 5 selectors in AI. A closed selector (black arrow), open selector (white arrow). The group selector (white arrow with a plus sign) and below those are 2 lasso selectors. Open lasso and closed lasso. The closed selector will select every object that comes in contact with your selection rectangle. The open selector will grab only the nodes within the rectangle. The lasso tools work the same way only you can draw any shape you want to trap stuff in. If you have multiple painful selections, get in the habit of using layers. Use the ctrl+[ and ctrl+] to zoom in and out on the fly and remember shift+clicking will add or subtract from your selection. So you could probably take the closed lasso, pass through all your wanted shapes with it, then shift click any extras you didnt want. BEHOLD! As Steve Jobs introduces us the latest in desk-lamp technology!

http://www.apple.com

 

[RLie]

Yessss jAQUAN, I knew i could count on your reaction...thanks for that, but i think your awnser does not do the trick......
I did understand the functioning of these selection tools (i think), but still think you will need at least 101 clicks in order to move the 100 small objects out of the way without affecting the 100 big ones.....the lasso thing activates all objects (or nodes of them) it crosses. That is also the 100 big ones. So you must deactivate the 100 big ones by shift-clicking in order to move only the small ones.
Of coarse, if you are aware before hand that you are going want to move the small ones after you have drawn them, you will probably create a layer for them. But this is most often not the case.
I think that the selection method of AI takes many, many more mouseclicks than Coreldraw does and i am starting to worry about repetetiv straign injuries on my wrist....

 

[askIllustrator]

Then try using the 'select same...' function in the edit menu. If you're working smart, the majority of smaller elements should fall into the same style somehow be it same stroke weight or color or same stroke and fill all together. The shift click both adds and subtracts with the lasso tool as well. I liken it to a game of jax. With creative use of hiding and locking objects you can sorta save selections by locking them down or hiding them. For instance, lets say you have a dark backround shape with snow flakes all over it. You could select one flake, choose select same style in the edit menu and if all the flakes were color'd the same way they would all jump into the selection. This works good if you are trying to keep the flakes ungrouped in order to let them sit in front and behind objects. If the object all sit at the same depth, then by all means group them! Try thinking backwards too (Corel should have helped with that lol). If there are many objects you want to select and just a few big ones, select all and deselect the big ones, viola! And again I cannot emphasize the importance of layers. LAYERS LAYERS LAYERS. Make a backround layer, a snowflake layer, a text layer. I'm usually ok with a backround, a forground, and a text layer, but sometimes I have multiples of each of those. AI also has sub-layers which I dont use much but work fine as well. That way all you have to do is click that little circle to the right of the layer name in you layers pallete to select everything on that layer. Let's say someone exported a Corel file with gradients and sent it to you for output. Once you get done laughing you ungroup multiple times to break apart all the shapes. From here you can start hiding one object at a time and when are done you can 'unhide all' which reveal everything you've hidden wich also selects them all. At which point you should start deviding things up into layers and grouping because a slick selection technique isnt so slick when you have to repeat it over and over. Isolate my friend, save the wrists for when you shake your fist at Corel for ever existing. BEHOLD! As Steve Jobs introduces us the latest in desk-lamp technology!

http://www.apple.com

 

[RLie]

Thanks, for your advise....
But still............all methods you mention are only workarounds to lessen the pain in my wrist; they do not give a fundamental solution.
I work mostly with very technical drawings with hundreds/ thousants often overlapping elements, different coulours, and strokes. So the problem i mentioned is not merely a academic one. Seldomly the select same style option gives me exactly what i want (not more, not less) and seldomly i can forsee the future need for layerseperation even before i start to draw.
The problem is I work in a highly competetive industrial environment where i cannot affort to loose time. Time is even more important than creativity or the quality of the looks....so efficient mouseclicks are important to me.
But thanks anyhow, your advises seem to be the right way to work with AI.

 

[askIllustrator]

I am a HUGE mouse click counter. Less clicks is always my goal. I've a hundred more slick techniques for doing so I just wanted to give you an idea behind AI's mindset. You have sparked my interest however. Would you mind describing an example of the kind of illustration you are creating? Are they blue prints, renderings, schematics? I'm also very curious what features in Corel help you do this work quickly. What is an example of the edits you need intricate selections for in order to make? I'm positive there is a huge time saver I can show you. BEHOLD! As Steve Jobs introduces us the latest in desk-lamp technology!

http://www.apple.com

 

[RLie]

okay, i have placed a simplified version of a drawing in

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/rob.lieveloo/lab3D.ai

(this is AI10)
This is a (not very complex) illustration i made within 1 hour in Coreldraw yesterday and exported it to AI (can AI do it this fast?)
It represents a airconditioning-layout for labrooms seen from above in simple one-point perspective (i did it in Corel because I still did not find a suitable plugin for AI to achieve this kind of perspective editable extrusions, Hotdoor nor Kpteffects nor popart3D do it in a simple way and are not editable).

When i now want to move the upper left airoutlet (dark blue) out of the rooms, in Corel i only need ONE click to catch and one to actualy move it (see the rectangle). In AI i think i need x? clicks (the outlet itself has 5 subelements, unfortunatly not-grouped and is layered together with the other outlets)
The whole drawing has been layered into logical purpose layers (walls, tables, airoutlets, lightfixings etc)

So how would you suggest to get only the upperleft airoutlet out of the rooms, how many clicks you need?
I think you are going to say: lock the other layers and activate with a rectangle......count the number of clicks....to lock/unlock/lock/unlock ......each time you want to change some airduct, lightingfixing etc

 

[RLie]

Oops little correction: don't use capitals in the webadress i mentioned before.....

 

[XLCS]

Illustrator 10 [Mac] creates a new sublayer for every new shape created in the file. If you are truly creating so many tiny graphics that are unique [not copying and pasting], you will have a sublayer for each of them. All you have to do is click on the gray arrow next to the layer name to view the sublayers. You then have two choices - you can either hide the sub-layers you don't want affected, or you can lock them. Unfortunately this is not going to cut down on the mouse-clicks, but if you can't plan ahead and create different layers, that's what you may have to resort to.

 

[askIllustrator]

That link is bad or something, could you repost it? BEHOLD! As Steve Jobs introduces us the latest in desk-lamp technology!

http://www.apple.com

 

[RLie]

yAQUAN, you are right, I abused of a capital D where it should be 'd' so the right adress is:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/rob.lieveloo/lab3d.ai

XLCS, yes that's right all those sublayers do exist in my drawing, but like you say, this is not cutting down on mouse-clicks and that is precisely my problem.
I am not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE in AI to select what i want, i am just saying that I have to multi-click a lot more in AI than in Coreldraw to get my selections rigth....

 

[askIllustrator]

That's an excellent document! At first glance I thought "too many layers" but I see exactly why it's set up that way. I had to drag each sub-layer out to make them each their own layer. Probably just some weird anomaly from importing a AI10 in AI9 that was saved in Corel. At any rate the adjustment in question took 2 clicks, 5 if you count layer locking. All I did was click and drag down the lock column of the layers palette which locks all of them, then unlocked the layers named "kanalentoev" and "roosters". Then, with an open selector I drug a marquee over the entire cube and the nodes included in the upper portion of the power line coming off it. This way the curved portion of tube coming off the cube can move with it and the rest of the pipe will automatically grow to accommodate.

Unless Corel has the ability to include nodes from another shape in a group I don’t see how it could be faster other than treating the cube like one object which is as easy as grouping anywhere else. I never consider it a waist of time to make a selection the first time, it’s repeatedly that I hate so taking the time to group (ctrl+g) the first time is a time saver in my opinion.
BEHOLD! As Steve Jobs introduces us the latest in desk-lamp technology!

http://www.apple.com

 

[askIllustrator]

Heh, I was just thinking (I do that sometimes) it looks like you use sort of a standard set of shapes consisting of cubes and tubes. AI's brush, styles, and symbols can be of huge assistance here. Consider creating one sample of each type of pipe section: straight piece, corner, etc. If you drag each sample into your swatch pallete then in your brush pallete choose new pattern brush and assign the segments acordingly. Then whenever you need a pipe of that type you simply click out the path of the pipe and choose your new brush as the stroke. Then editing is as easy as moving the endpoints of the path. Also, these brushes can be built in grey scale and then colorized just as you would color any other stroke. Hehe, you also get stroke weight option not to meantion scaling and spacing options in the brush itself. BEHOLD! As Steve Jobs introduces us the latest in desk-lamp technology!

http://www.apple.com

 

[RLie]

Yes, that was new to me, you did it in 5 clicks. I did not know one could simple drag over the layerlist to lock all layers at once. That's a nice feature. Also selecting objects and some nodes only from another object come in handy in this case. But you did not count several clicks you needed to know which layer to turn off and on.
Conclusion of it all: you still needed 7 or 8 times more clicks than Corel (who does it with ONE click)not to mention the zoom or pan clicks you needed to be sure you did not select things outside of your window......
In Corel I simply do not bother to check for layers, when i select with a rectangle i am pretty sure i get only the objects that are completely IN the rectangle. I do not have to 'think', whereas with AI i have to be inventif each time i want to select something new.....
well, maybe that is not so bad afterall...
Thanks for your time and help....

 

[blueark]

I guess it depends on what you're used to. Personally, I find it irritating to draw a rectangle in CorelDraw and find I've missed a few things because I didn't quite catch the whole shape. It's also a problem if I'm working close up, and the whole objects aren't visible. When you drag a rectangle on your desktop, partially selected files & folders get selected, so surely this behavior is more intuitive for most?

Anyway, I'd better sign off before I start another AI vs CD row. I suppose it would be nice if both behaviors were available -- that would keep everyone happy!

 

[RLie]

Okay, point for you (and a star)

 

[askIllustrator]

I mainly just wanted to show that there's plenty of ways to skin this one. It's the creative use of the tools I explained that really start to save time. The point is production time Rlie and if Corel just works, well then I guess there's no need to switch. Yah I wish the whole world used AI but that's only becuase I never want to see .cdr's from my clients anymore. It's a selfish thing. If you won the bid, and got paid for the job, there really is no point to opening up old docs just to count how many clicks it took. I'm glad I could show you the grass on this side of the hill. For things to get really fast and intuitive you have to work in it daily and you would be taking a step back for a while til you got as fast you are in Corel now. Maybe just tinker in AI for a while to you get your speed up before you disrupt your workflow. I'd buy a Mac if I could afford one.

 

[merlin3]

ok Jaquan u got to admit that AI main selection tools are downright stupid. I`m not gonna try to defend corel in any case here; I`ve been deceived by it so many times, that although getting used with AI seems to take forever, I`ll never go back to CorelDraw again..
anyways the simple existence of the lasso selection tools (great tools if u ask me) doubles the stupidity of the main ones. it`s simply not logical, in corel if i want smthng selected i draw a rectangle around it. If i want smthng on the bkgrnd of my selection selected also, i draw a bigger rectangle - simple, huh? whereas in AI there`s no simple way to get the object without the background selected, "just a click u would say" - but u try nailing a minusculous object on a big screen resolution. and this is just a simple one-object-selection case, but that`s just what makes it so outrageous, cos this is the kind of selection u gonna use most often. things get really complicated with multiple object selections too, oh I know - U go screw around with the multilayer, multigrouping same stylles junk!, i don`t know what work ur doing, but on my documents nothing is settled in its place til i say "JOB DONE", so i want all the objects close to me and ready to be altered. Offcourse in the end evrythnig is a matter of cases. There are cases (so incredibly rarely) when AI selection mode actually helps, when objects that u want selected are so dispersed that a simple rectangle ain`t gonna do the trick. BUT, here go the lasso selection tools, great tools I say again, they do the job twice as good since they let u draw any shape u like, selectin anything they pass through.
That`s why I say that the presence of the lasso selections makes the main selection mode useless.

And it`s not even that much of an option to implement, freehand has it, u can change between the two selection modes.

P.S. I`ve recently had to work on a simple web button consisting of three concentrical circles, of wich the topmost two, were frequently altered. I had to show my frustration to the client sitting next to me, as this simple job took twice as much to complete, than I`ve predicted, mainly because of selection problems.

 

[blueark]

Er, I can't really see your logic here. If you prefer the lasso selection tools, then keep using them. You don't like the standard selection tools, then don't use them. What's the problem?

It seems there's a lot of basic Illustrator skills lacking here:

there`s no simple way to get the object without the background selected
Yes there is. You mentioned one already, the lasso selection tools. Another way is to get used to the Artwork/Preview keyboard shortcut (cmd-Y on a mac) to toggle between two states. Switch-Select-Switch back. It doesn't take long to get used to.

U go screw around with the multilayer, multigrouping same stylles junk
What are you talking about? You don't want to use layers, then don't. You can still use the layers palette to find what you want.

And it`s not even that much of an option to implement, freehand has it, u can change between the two selection modes
Huh?! You say Illustrator has all these selection modes, and now ask why they don't have an option? I don't understand.

I`ve recently had to work on a simple web button consisting of three concentrical circles, of wich the topmost two, were frequently altered
Fine. Lock the third one. What's the problem?

The standard selection tools may not be your preference, but as I mentioned above they are probably more intuitive for many because they so closely resemble the desktop model. Imagine trying to group select a bunch of folders on your desktop the corel way: anything half selected wouldn't be included, try again. To me, that's frustrating. Others may have a different view.

If you're going to use Illustrator, you really should take the time to learn some basic techniques. Once you get used to them, the rest is easy.

 

[askIllustrator]

It's all a matter of working smart as you go. Of course nothing is done until its done, that's why we are using AI instead of PS. But if you generalize on your way up ie. text layers, background layers, content layers etc. Then draging a layer below one another eliminates the need to select all together sometimes. As I've repeated a couple times in this string, it's creative use of the selection tools that make it fast. I never even select either of the arrow tools because they just a ctrl key away (not to mention ctrl+tab switched between open and closed selectors). I use locking and hiding quite a bit too. Even more clicks are taken away by the amount of keyboard shortcuts I use. You gotta ditch the menus and become a two fisted artist. The only time saver corel has I can think of is interactive gradients which I would still suffer through in AI for the better print quality. I dont see how marqeeing and area is more intuitive than pointing and clicking. People by nature point at what they want, not draw a shape around it. If your backround objects are neatly locked on another layer, you wouldnt have to worry about including it in your selection. Even if it wasnt you could leave it locked while you work on top of it, or maybe hide it? No application is going to jump into your hands like the one you know. I wasnt taught to be biased, I've only ever wanted to be faster and more efficient than anyone else so I put all the apps through their paces and only one app continually allowed me to meet my estimates. And all I hear from my clients is "Wow, your so fast at that.." and "How did you do that without touching the mouse?"

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein