Salary Negotiations 1

[BulldogBoy]

About 6 or 8 months ago I was talking with a company about going to work with them as one of their 2 lead programmers. They offered me the job at about 5K (USD) less than I was hoping, and I would have to move about 400 miles away from where I live now, but I would have still considered it. Unfortunately, the timing was off. They offered me the job just a few weeks after both my mother and grandmother passed away, and it was also about a month before I got married. At that point in time, I just could not justify moving 400 miles away from my father who had just lost both his wife and mother within less than 3 weeks of each other. I'm sorry, but my family comes first. When I explained this to my would-be boss at the company, he said he completely understood and admired my decision, and that he would keep my info in case something came up in the future

About 2 weeks ago, while surfing on the 'Net, I inadvertently discovered that their other lead programmer (the guy I would have been working side by side with), had taken another job and had left the company. The only reason I know this is because, while researching some new programming features, I stumbled across his personal blog site. I reckognized the guy's name and picture on his website, and after reading his blog I knew it was him. Anyway, he had a posting about him getting a new job somwhere around the end of last month.

At the end of last week, I got a call from the guy that offered me the job several months ago. I was right in the middle of something and had some people with me, so I really couldn't talk, but I told him I would call him back today. I feel pretty confident that he wants to talk to me again about coming to work for him, especially since his lead guy just left. (He doesn't know I that I know this) I haven't talked to him yet, so I don't know if he's going to offer me the same salary as before or not, or if he's even going to offer me a job. I really like the area that the job is in, and my wife and I are wanting to move there anyway, even though it's 400 miles away from where we are now.

After all of my ramblings, my question is this: How would I go about salary negotiations in this situation? Obviously they must want me, if they just up and call out of the blue several months after talking with them originally. Their lead guy is gone, so they really need someone. If they offer me the same thing as they did before, should I just accept it or try to get a little more? If they offer me a little more than before, should I accept that or still try to negotiate? I don't want to get greedy, I'm sure they've got other people they can call and offer the job. I've never been good at this sort of thing, I always just take (or leave) what's offered and have never really tried to negotiate. Plus, I have to consider the whole relocation factor, but I doubt they offer any assistance with that.

Any thoughts?

 

[Welshbird]

I think this might slightly depend on the discussions you have already had with him. If you have previously accepted a salary offer then I'm not too sure that you are still in a position to negotiate. If you hadn't discussed this 6-8 months ago then this is still a 'pending' negotiation in my eyes.

I guess it also depends on whatever you may have gained in knowledge in the last 6-8 months too.

But, it's only my opinion. If it were me I wouldn't renegotiate an already agreed salary.

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[bigoldbulldog]

You might reasses salary since 6-8 months later puts you squarely in a new fiscal year. You could also justify a renegotion saying you never fully talked through medical, 401 k contributions, etc. You should also re-explore the position with the hiring manager to see how the position has changed, will your level/authority be higher, etc. - your best shot a renegotiation. Also, be careful with your inside knowledge of the company's loss of the other programmer - but try to use it. If it comes up, ask why; this could be important especially when you compare their answer with the person's blogged reason. They expect blunt questions.

What relocation assistance did they offer prior? That should have been your immediate conversation after settling on a salary. Is lead programmer considered manager level? How big is the company? If the company is small they probably won't have any assistance or outside contracts to help, but lump sum or a month or two of inconvience salary could happen. Use this along with a comfortable start date, to give yourself time to sell/buy a new home. Manager level at a large company should get a full relocation package. Again, they expect to go over this.


Cheers,
ND

 

[SQLSister]

Call them back and tell them you might be interested but that you would need a salary of $X to consider the position. Set it a couple of thousand higher than you want. They will come back with a counter offer or accept your offer. By setting your initial expectation a littel higher than wha tyou actually want, you may get it or at least you have the wiggle room to give a littel and still get what you want. No reall need to justify why you want more, it sounds as if you didn't negotiate the last time but turned the position down. Anyway enough time has passed (and with the proces of everything going up due to increased gas prices, the salary expectation should be a bit higher). If they are coming straingt to you, it means that they very much would like to have you and thus you are worth paying more to them or that they are in a hurry to fill the position and thus worth more to avoid a long drawn out search or both. The best time to get what you want is at hiring, companies are harder to get good raises out of than good initial salaries. If you really want the job and they won't initally go as high as you want, consider starting at the lower salary with a promise in writing of a raise in three months to a set amount negotiated up front. Above all don't feel guilty about asking for what you want; I guanatetee if you don't ask you won't get. And why start a job where you already resent the salary you have.

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[LadySlinger]

I agree with SQLSister.

Also I would read through some of the blogs on the old programmer's site to see if he happens to mention why he took a new job. I always get a little suspicious when employees leave a company in such a short time.

Heck if he mentions the companies that he has worked for and you feel comfortable doing this, email him to find out why he left. Perhaps the environment was different then expected.

I would hate to move 400 miles only to be having to find a new job in a month or two.

 

[paterson]

You need to be reminded of a couple of things.

1) They are coming to you. That puts you in the driver's seat when it comes to salary negotiation. As you said, you don't want to be greedy, but you should use this fact to get what you want.

2) Always ask for the little things like relocation allowances, stock options, contributions to pension/RRSPs, company car, expense accounts, whatever. If you don't ask, then the answer is NO. If you do ask, the answer may become YES.

3) I don't know of many people that work only because they want to see a company succeed or enjoy the job, blah, blah, blah... The lowest common denominator of why we all work is to make money! The other things like enjoying your work, wanting to see the company and co-workers succeed are all nice and noble and could ultimately see more green in your jeans, but they are not why you work. GET THE MONEY UP FRONT.

**************************************
Insert Witty Signature Here.

 

[aarenot]

Negotiations are complete when you get something in writing clarifying the deal, and you both sign it, and until then everything is still negotiable. verbal discussions are clarifications of elements of a proposed agreement not the acceptance of the entire package. Until all elements are agreed upon, documented, and signed it is all still discussion. Even something as simple as a start date is a contingency upon which the agreement may be held up on, even after the remaining issues are agreed.

Also, you turned down the previous offer, or you would already be employed there. Re-negotiate for the lead position, and get everything you can squeeze out of them, unless you think they will not expect everything you have to offer in the fulfillment of your duties as an employee.

 

[BulldogBoy]

Thanks everyone! This is great advice! We didn't get into salary in our conversation yesterday, we've scheduled another phone conference for Friday to go over some of that. Or conversation yesterday was mainly just catching up, "This is where we are, what we've got planned, and what we need. Would you be interested in coming on board? Where do we go from here?" type stuff. I'm working on a list of questions for our Friday conference, mainly stuff about benifits, their programming methods, how they do things, what's expected, work environment, and so-on. Oh, and of course salary.

Thanks for you help! Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Welshbird]

I've recently been in similar negotiations, and have tried to find a way to ask about the corporate culture as well as the work environment as I began to realise that this was as important to me.

So, I asked questions about home working (not just for me, but would I need to interact with colleagues who may not be office based); company charity schemes (like do they nominate a charity of the year or some such); dress code etc.

It may not be relevant to you, but thought I might mention it as a thought. When I am the other side of the interview table I like such questions to be asked as it always makes me think that the candidate is seeing my company as a long-term deal.

I've also read this article recently and whilst it isn't all relevant to you in this case (as it is about how to employ someone rather than how to get employed), it may give you some ideas.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html

Good luck!



Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[58sniper]

1) They are coming to you. That puts you in the driver's seat when it comes to salary negotiation. As you said, you don't want to be greedy, but you should use this fact to get what you want.

Ding ding ding - we have a winner. If you have a job already, you're in total control.

2) Always ask for the little things like relocation allowances, stock options, contributions to pension/RRSPs, company car, expense accounts, whatever. If you don't ask, then the answer is NO. If you do ask, the answer may become YES.

Another winner! Don't forget things like professional association membership dues, professional conference expenses, vacation time, etc.

There is seldom a better position to be in than when a company comes to you.

My current employer came to me at the request of an employee of theirs who is a friend of mine. I was comfortable where I was (so I had nothing to lose), so I played a little hardball. It was quite beneficial.

Pat Richard, MCSE MCSA:Messaging CNA
Microsoft Exchange MVP
Want to know how email works? Read for yourself -

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2821.txt

 

[BulldogBoy]

Thanks, Fee[/f]! That's a great article. And thanks for the points about membership dues, professional conference expenses, etc., Pat, that's something I hadn't considered.