Reshuffle facing pages

[shanerob]

I am creating a book of 300 pages.

I have designed master pages for:
1) Start of chapter pages
2) 2 page spreads for chapter text with the inside (spine) margins larger than outside margins.
Also text frames for main body of text.
3) Single blank master pages for copyright, title, and other miscellaneous pages.

Now I have run into a problem because I need to add a page to the end of a chapter, but when I do that the shuffle of the following pages puts the chapter text frames on the wrong side. In other words, where they were closer to the outer edge to allow for a wider margin for the spine, they now are closer to the spine than the outer edge.

This also means the text frames do not fall inside the margins defined on the master pages for the chapter spreads.

My question is, does InDesign allow you to "reflow" objects between pages of spreads so that they take into acount which way the page is facing?

Or how does one handle such a thing?

Thanks for the help

 

[apepp]

>>> 1) Start of chapter pages <<<

...is this a single page master, or a spread master?

...it is also common practice to create a new indesign document for each chapter (or even for each section in some cases), and combine these documents using the book feature that indesign provides (file > new book), allowing for document synchronization of styles...

andrew

 

[apepp]

...it's also pretty common practice to begin a chapter on the right hand page, with a blank on the preceding page if required...

andrew

 

[shanerob]

>>> 1) Start of chapter pages <<<

This is a single page to start new chapters (with two frames, chapter headings frame and chapter text frame).

We want to avoid blank pages in the contents of the book if possible, which is why I did it all as one document. Perhaps that was the wrong approach to take but being new to InDesign I started with a "book" and got very confused.

Also, I was not sure how a book would combine to form the PDF/Xa format I need for print on demand publishing.

I'm trying to reduce the number of problems I have for book production, but perhaps I am just adding to me problems with the approach I am taking.

 

[apepp]

...it's possible to export a complete indesign book by way of the book palette flyout menu (top right of the book palette) for future reference and apply whatever PDF presets you need...

...anyway, to clarify, you have a "single" master page (one B-Master page for example) that determines your chapter pages layout in a facing pages document...

...so you really need a two page B-Master SPREAD that defines the chapter layout, otherwise indesign doesn't know that when a B-Master falls on the left it can find a B-Master left hand page in the masters palette...

...without knowing it has a left master, it will simply just move the right hand chapter page to the left, meaning you end up with odd margin guides that dont mirror the opposing page...

andrew

 

[apepp]

...unless your aware already, it is worth adding that a book (or other long page document) has to be divisible by four for bindery purposes, unless you have complicated multipage flyout sections, like a 6 page, whereby two additional side pages extend away (left or right) of the stitched 4 page spine...

...or if the final product is ring bound, or some other form of binding that isn't stitched along the spine...

andrew

 

[apepp]

...as mentioned in previous post, the book feature has many advantages, among them the ability to be able to shuffle chapters (or sections) of a book easily within the book palette, so if an editor decides they actually made a mistake in the chapter order, it's a bit easier to deal with...

...it also adds a degree of security in that if a 500 page indesign file corrupts, you have potentially lost a good deal of the latest amends. Obviously backing up regularly is something we all know about, but losing one or two chapters as opposed to the whole book is less painful in the long run...

andrew

 

[apepp]

...a great resource to have a look over, at some point in time, for long documents (and other features) can be found here:

http://www.theindesigner.com/blog/category/long-documents

andrew

 

[shanerob]

Andrew,

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my initial question.

I have set up master pages.

I have a 1 page master for the first page of chapters.

I have a 2 page master for following pages of a chapter.

The 1 page master has two frames, top for chapter heading, bottom for beginning chapter text.

I start a chapter with the 1 page master. Then I add the 2 page spread for the rest of the chapter contents. I paste the text into the start page. I click the out port of the text frame of the start of chapter page, and shift-click the two page spread and the text auto flows into that creating pages as needed. The chapter may end on a left or right page, it doesn't matter.

Then I add the 1 page start of chapter to start a new chapter. If the last page of the last chapter ends on a left hand page, the start of chapter page starts on a right hand page and I have a "split spread" in which case the left hand page is from the 2 page spread master but using only the left hand page of the master, the right hand page of the spread is the single start of chapter page.

The problem lies in if I need to insert pages into the middle of a chapter, the "page shuffle" gets all screwed up, because the text frames don't align with margins of the spine (if the page insertaion happens to change where the left and right hand pages fall in the shuffle). See my first post for the explanation.

I understand that books print with multi-fold layouts. My printer (print-on-demand service) just adds extra blank pages to the end of the book to accomodate this if it does not come out even. No problem.

Thanks for your help.

Any ideas on how to correct my page shuffle problem.

Thanks,
Shane

 

[apepp]

>>> "I start a chapter with the 1 page master" <<<
>>> "I have a 1 page master for the first page of chapters." <<<

...as you quoted in your first post:

>>> "but when I do that the shuffle of the following pages puts the chapter text frames on the wrong side" <<<

...this is because you only have ONE single master page representing the chapters, you need both a left and a right master spread, which was my first question:

>>> "...is this a single page master, or a spread master?" <<<

...to which you replied:

>>> "This is a single page to start new chapters (with two frames, chapter headings frame and chapter text frame)." <<<

...which i replied:

>>> ...so you really need a two page B-Master SPREAD that defines the chapter layout, otherwise indesign doesn't know that when a B-Master falls on the left (when pages are added) it can actually find a B-Master left hand page in the masters palette...

...without knowing it has a left master, it will simply just move the right hand chapter page to the left, meaning you end up with odd margin guides that dont mirror the opposing page... <<<

andrew

 

[shanerob]

Thanks Andrew, but I think the part you are missing is that I DO have a 2 page MASTER SPREAD (see all my notes above which mention the "spread").

Only the first page of a chapter is a single master page.

ALL the other pages of a chapter are made up using a 2 PAGE MASTER SPREAD.

The 2 page master spread is set up as "Facing Pages" and they have page header frames that have page numbers that are always on the "outside".

This 2 page master spread has the "spine" margin wider than the outside margin for both pages. And it has a text frame set up so that the left page text frame is farther to the left and the right page text frame is farther to the right, so that the "spine margin" is wider (for easier reading) than the outside margins.

The problem lies in the fact that if I insert a page and the pages "shuffle" the text frames onto the wrong side page they don't match up to the margins any more (they are too close to the spine and don't line up with the margins as defined on the master page).

 

[apepp]

...the classic case of misinterpretation here, as my view was that you didn't have 2 page spread on your master pages for the start chapter layout, only one...

...i now believe you are referring to , why doesn't indesign mirror layouts when adding pages? well it does sort of, depending on how you have the objects laid out on the page in comparison to the margin setup...

...the long and short of it is you need a plugin or you have to fix it manually, please refer to these pages, essentially indesign isn't geared for automatic mirroring:

http://in-tools.com/plugin.php?p=14

http://indesignsecrets.com/adjust-position-of-objects-when-pages-reflow.php

http://indesignsecrets.com/how-to-mirror-a-layout.php

andrew

 

[apepp]

...these are the sort of issues people don't realize the implications of, adding pages, deleting pages, so so so easy to do and yet can be so problematic your boss or whoever can't understand why it's not a 5 minute job, even on the latest greatest, speediest computer that mankind has ever seen...

...adobe obviously haven't jumped in to assist this, as it is probably a coding nightmare, and their bosses are saying get this sorted and get that sorted, so plugin people pop up and work on these features that adobe haven't...

andrew

 

[shanerob]

ah, thank you Andrew. That was the answer I was looking for, sort of...

The good news is I got my answer. The bad news is InDesign doesn't really mirror pages all that well.

Thank you so much for sticking with me on this.

Shane

 

[apepp]

...that's fine shane, i know the frustrations, also that sinking feeling when jobs screw up without you knowing and you get the blame!!

andrew