Quotation Punctuation

[Noway2]

I read a short article yesterday morning that I thought was very relevant to this forum. The article stated that many of us, at least in America, were taught in school that the punctuation mark belongs inside of the quotes in a quotation. For example, "This is a quote ending a sentence." The article stated that the rise of the internet has brought about a change in this rule and that it is becoming more common for the punctuation to be outside of the quote at the very end of the sentence. Furthermore, the article claimed that putting the punctuation on the inside of the quote is an American English rule while it is considered proper to put it on the outside in British English.

This lead me to two questions: one, is this American vs. British statement correct? Two, given the evolutionary nature of language, what makes a particular rule correct or incorrect?

 

[2ffat]

I've been wondering about this rule for awhile myself. There seems to be times when I need to quote an item but don't want the punctuation inside the quotes. Otherwise, I use the "American English" rule.

When you see the password in quotes, type that password exactly like it is shown but without the quotes. . . The new password is "F0dBw2".

I don't want the period in the quotes in this example so I break the rule.


James P. Cottingham
[sup]I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229![/sup]

 

[SamBones]

As a programmer, the quotation marks are delimiters, and everything inside of them are considered part of what's being quoted. I'm an American, but I put the punctuation for the surrounding sentence outside of the quotes, even though it may be against accepted conventions.

Putting it inside just looks like this to me...

// C Example
printf("Hello, world!);"

// SQL Example
select * from customers where last_name = "smith;"

So I happily break this convention all the time.

There's also the situation where what's being quoted has explicit punctuation, but the sentence refering to it may not, or may be different. Examples...

He looked at me and said, "WHAT?!?".

In a crowded movie theater, is it ok to yell "FIRE!"?

That seems the most logical to me. I say we go with that. All in favor?

 

[djj55]

American English is one big exception. For every rule I was also taught the exceptions. Thus I have no idea what the rules are as my memory is bad at the best of times.

djj
The Lord is my shepherd (Psalm 23) - I need someone to lead me!

 

[SantaMufasa]

Even since age 7 when I started learning "The Rules of the Game", I have always felt that the (USA) "classroom" rule of placing final punctuation inside the quotes is silly -- IMHO, the punctuation that should fall inside the quotes is the punctuation given by the original speaker, then the containing sentence should end with its appropriate puncuation as in Sam's excellent example:

In a crowded movie theater, is it ok to yell "FIRE!"?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I put punctuation that is part of the quoted material inside the quotes, but punctuation only pertinent the main sentence remains outside.


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[Turkbear]

Hi,
I agree with Santa and Cajun ( no surprise there, they are usually right);if the quote has punctuation or is a complete sentence, that punctuation is inside the quotation marks while the sentence containing the quote is ended with its own punctuation.





To Paraphrase:"The Help you get is proportional to the Help you give.."

 

[hjgoldstein]

I remember this rule from oh so many years ago.

I would comply with it if the quotation marks are being used to delimit speech (speech marks) but not necessarily if it is another form of delimitation.

So, "Is this a correct use of punctuation?" asked the teacher.

But - The pupil asked whether his use of punctuation was within "acceptable parameters".

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[IPGuru]

in the second example I do not see the quote marks as being necessary.

unless being uses as to indicate the exact words used, in which case they are a true quotation.
In this case I would also leave the full stop outside the quotation marks but then again I am English

where I would be unsure would be when a full sentence is quoted at the end of a sentence do I add the full stop on the end of the quote, the end of the full sentence or both?

The boy said "I dont know which is correct.".

looks messy to me, I would probably adopt my universal Plan 'B' & reformat the sentence

"I dont't know which is correct." said the boy





Computers are like Air conditioners:-
Both stop working when you open Windows

 

[hjgoldstein]

==>"I dont't know which is correct." said the boy

I would say that "I don't know which is correct," said the boy. would be more accurate.

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[BadBigBen]

I too, was taught that the punctuation belonged in the quotes in the american schooling system, where as in the German and also English class in German school, it was outside of the quote...

"George, do I look fat?"

"George, do I look fat"?

believe it or not, I find the AE version to be more pleasing to the eye, since it quotes the question and not the questions the quote...

Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"

 

[flyboytim]

I believe the differences between the British (or Logical) and the American convention only deal with commas and periods, not exclamation and question marks, and that the usage in quoted direct speech in works of fiction is identical in either style.

Thus `"George, do I look fat"?' would always be wrong - it would be incorrect to write:

"George, do I look fat"? his wife asked. (no new sentence for his wife asked. )
"George, do I look fat" his wife asked? (the whole sentence is not a question, only the speech)

Only the following would work:

"George, do I look fat?" his wife asked.


Here's an article on the subject:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2011/05/the_rise_of_logical_punctuation.single.html

Also the earlier example of:

`In a crowded movie theater, is it ok to yell "FIRE!"?' should not strictly have the exclamation mark, since the quoted word is "fire". * Nobody actually shouted this hypothetical exclamation. It is a paraphrase, I think. So, it is not a quote, and rather the quotation marks serve to exemplify and emphasise the word "fire".*

Thus the verb "to yell", the use of capitals for "fire",** the quotation marks surrounding "FIRE!" themselves, and the exclamation mark add up to a multiple redundancy of methods of emphasis used in that sentence.

* For the American convention this sentence should end with `"fire."'
** For the American convention this sentence should contain `"fire,"'

See the "paraphrase", "Use-mention distinction", and "Typographical considerations" sections of the Wikipedia article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark

Please also feel free to tear apart my own use of punctuation!

 

[SamBones]

MEH!", I say!

Thus the verb "to yell", the use of capitals for "fire",** the quotation marks surrounding "FIRE!" themselves, and the exclamation mark add up to a multiple redundancy of methods of emphasis used in that sentence.

The use of redundant methods of emphasis is "[COLOR=red yellow]EXTREMELY[/color]" common in everyday use of English.

 

[hjgoldstein]

Don't mention the word "redundant" please. I've only got till the end of November!

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[Noway2]

@hjgoldstein, you must be on the right hand side of the pond, while looking north.

 

[hjgoldstein]

Good observation Noway2.

Second time, same company. Not easy at the moment.

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[KenCunningham]

Sorry to hear that, hj, hope you get something else soon (if that's what you want of course). My peg's a bit shoogly too, but it hasn't given up just yet.

The internet - allowing those who don't know what they're talking about to have their say.

 

[GSCaupling]

I would tell you what my teacher said about punctuation and quotation marks, but... I no longer know how.

GS

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[small]I[/small] [small]Hate[/small] [♥] [small]Ambiguity.[/small][/green]