"Sleepy Sets" & Firmware Questions

[TelNetSystems]

I have been following the posts about the flex boards in MLX sets oxidizing and causing the sleepy sets problem. I have torn apart four "sleepy sets", and I found one obviously oxidized flex board and three flex boards that appear to be replacement boards in good condition. I also have the Merlin Legend R7 V10 ugrade card with instructions that say the following about a firmware upgrade on the card, "008 MLX, Current FW App. Vintage: 3.0, Fixes 'sleepy sets' - LEDs temporarily go off and buttons do not respond on MLX sets., QPPCN Covering Current FV App. Vintage Change: 1090B Sup 2." Yahoo! searches for "QPPCN 1090B" and "QPPCN 1090" return nothing. The Avaya web site lists PCNs only for the Magix system. The Avaya support web site search function also returns no results for 1090B. Are there TWO possible causes of the "sleepy sets" problem, older firmware versions and oxidized flex boards? Where can I find QPPCNs for the Legend system?

I also have two questions about firmware. 1) The firmware version seems to have two components: FW Vintage & App. Vintage, which I think stand for Firmware Vintage and Application Vintage. What is the difference between these two? 2) I read in an earlier post in this forum that Avaya dealers can copy maintenance upgrades onto a PCMCIA card you provide for a minor charge. Does this mean firmware upgrades only, or do version upgrades work this way also? I have a "used backup card" I purhcased that turned out to be a reformatted R7 V10 upgrade card. Could I send it to an Avaya dealer and have the current Legend or Magix firmware and software versions copied onto it?

 

[TelNetSystems]

No one knows anything about this firmware upgrade?

 

[telman57]

hi TelNetSystems,
A couple of years ago, I was having a lot of trouble with MLX-20L's and MLX-10D's. What I found to be the trouble was defective LED's. After the phone locks-up, shut off any surrounding lights. You should be able to see a faint glow from the bad LED. I think the (sneak) current through the LED, acts as if that particular key is being pressed.(that is why no other keys will function) You can duplicate the trouble by holding down any key and try pressing another key. Nothing!

Quick Fix - If it's a key that you are not utilizing (or you don't need the LED,) just pluck it off. However, I can tell you from experience, it's just a matter of time before another one goes bad. For the time and energy, your better off replacing the flex board. Hope this helps

 

[TelNetSystems]

I have seen faintly glowing LEDs in defective sets before, and I have replaced the flex circuits in several MLX-10D sets which seems to fix their problems. However, that does not explain why I have this instruction sheet from Lucent/Avaya that says an updated firmware on the Legend R7 V10 upgrade card fixes "sleepy sets." If the problem is the flex circuits, how could they possibly think a firmware upgrade is going to fix it? Are people with non-upgraded MLX cards using MLX phones with new flex circuits still confronting a similar problem? Are there two problems with the similar symptoms? I was hoping the QPPCN would provide more information, but I cannot seem to find QPPCNs published anywhere.

I can't believe the Avaya dealers out there don't know something about this.

 

[kristiandg]

The best example of the difference between FW and APP vintages is as follows...

I've got a Merlin Message module. Its got the features of a 2.5 so the FW Ver is 2.5. However, I've loaded on the 3.0 files onto the hard drive so my APP Ver is 3.0.

Hope this makes sense.

Kris

 

[franke]

This problem was first noticed and addressed by Lucent back in 1994 (back when they still used a BBS), whereupon they posted a document "Technician MLX Set Troubleshooting Guide". In essence it recommends checking all wiring and connections. The cause was attributed to voltage levels falling below the 38vDC brownout threshold. While the set is in the ~18vDC to 38vDC range, the LED's will be left in their last state but will NOT change to a new state. Also any sets in this range , any LED's that are on will be MUCH BRIGHTER than usual. If the voltage drops below about 18vDC, the LED's will go out altogether and the display (if equipped) will be blank.

The temporary fix was to replace sets with a "D" series MLX set, until the new software/modules became available.

So my quess is that you have the older modules(s) and they are telling you to upgrade them. (Assuming of course the the problem is not a wiring/connection problem).

franke

 

[GroundWire]

Could this also mean you might have a bad (or going bad) power supply?

I've got a Legend cabinet on my bench at the moment, with a single MLX-28D plugged into it via a short CAT5 patch cable, and I'm having some of the sleepy sets behaviour, but I don't know much about the other symptoms, so I can't claim that at the moment.

The CAT5 patch cable right into the 008MLX module makes it kinda hard to say I've got bad wiring..

Of course, this is a CKE3 R4 processor.. and I'm currently trying to get it upgraded, as I understand there were some firmware updates that may have addressed part of this as well.

I'll be watching for other people's input, so I can make sure this doesn't happen when this unit gets installed onsite as well!

Thanks!

- Joel

 

[TelNetSystems]

Well, here is what actually happened to me. I purchased a Merlin Magix 2.2 processor with clamshell, a base cabinet with backplane and A3 power supply, an expansion cabinet with backplane and A3 power supply, and a Merlin Messaging 1.1 with clamshell from MetrolineDirect.com. I then purchased (1) 800 DID, (2) 800 GS/LS, (7) 008 MLX, 1 MLX-20L, and (40) MLX-10Ds on eBay. I assembled the entire system on the bench and connected the 20L and several 10Ds for programming and testing. Everything went well except for one of my 10D telephones which kept "locking up" overnight. I thought I just had a bad phone and put it aside. Everything else seemed to work okay and I installed the system in place of a maxed out Partner ACS.

After the system had been installed for several days, telephones started "locking up" all over the place. I would say 20-25% of the phones were exhibiting this behavior. I ordered 8 extra phones to replace those that were locking up, only to discover that some of the replacements began locking up as well. The problem definitely seemed to follow the phones, rather than the module or port the telephone was plugged into. I began searching the web for an explanation before taking the rather expensive step of purchasing a bunch of brand new telephones. I noticed on eBay a Legend R7 V10 upgrade card that said it had a firmware upgrade for MLX modules that would fix "sleepy sets". I bought the card for $50 figuring it might help and it was worth the gamble. Then I found this site and read about the flex circuits oxidizing. I tore apart the original phone I had set aside and found visible oxidization on the flex circuit. I posted a question about sources for these circuits, ordered 10 of them from Triad, and began replacing them in my "sleepy" telephones. Then the upgrade card arrived, which I figured was worthless since there was no way a firmware upgrade was going to fix a problem caused by oxidization of a hardware component. Much to my surprise, the documentation from Avaya that came with the card said the firmware upgrade would fix "sleepy sets" which were MLX phones where the LEDs would temporarily go off and the buttons would stop responding... EXACTLY the behavior supposedly caused by the oxidized flex circuits. Even stranger, when I disassembled the remaining "sleepy" telephones, the flex circuits appeared to be replacement circuits in good condition. Desperate to fix the problem, I went ahead and replaced the flex circuits in the sleepy phones anyway AND upgraded the firmware in 4 of the 008 MLX modules. The remaining 3 modules are not upgradeable.

It has been 4 days, and so far all the phones are holding stable. However, I don't know for sure whether the flex circuits were the entire problem, or if I was experiencing two separate problems with identical symptoms: oxidized flex circuits and buggy firmware. Which makes me wonder 1) did I replace perfectly good flex circuits, and 2) do I need to replace the non-upgradable MLX modules with upgradable ones or not? I am a little puzzled by this, and I am really surprised that no one else on this forum seems to know anything about this firmware upgrade. I would dismiss it as a bit of "misinformation" from the "misinformed", except it is printed documentation directly from Avaya. They reference a QPPCN with more information, but I can't find it online anywhere.

Hopefully someone that knows something about this or has access to the referenced QPPCN will post an answer. Until then, I guess this upgrade will remain an uncertain factor.

David Hall

 

[GroundWire]

So then... Can you tell me what a "Flex board" is exactly?
From the name, I would infer it's the MFM module installed in the phone, but I'm guessing that's not correct, as it seems to have something to do with the membranes in the top of the phone? So now I'm confused..

- Joel

 

[TelNetSystems]

The flex board or flex circuit is a flexible circuit "sheet" or "membrane" that sits underneath the buttons in the telephone and contains the LED lights and the contacts that sense when a button has been pressed.
If I copied the link right, you can see a picture of them in the flyer liked below.

http://www.refurbsupplies.com/catalog/What's New/Lucent Flex Circuits.pdf

 

[TelNetSystems]

Hmm... try this one. Go to

http://www.refurbsupplies.com/download.html

click on "View" next to "Avaya/Lucent Flex Circuits" under the "What's New" heading.

 

[TelNetSystems]

Groundwire,

This thread should give you some good information about the flex board problem.

thread689-84909

 

[GroundWire]

Cool, thanks for the info. That's what I thought the flex boards were, but noone had actually spelled it out in anything I had read.

So, obviously this is common with 10button phones, and I've seen some people mention MLX-20L's having the problems too.

What would you say if I told you I had an MLX-28D that's giving me some of these same symptoms? That link you gave me to refurb supplies didn't mention having stuff for the 28D. On a scale of 1 to 10, how screwed am I?

Thanks!

- Joel

 

[TelNetSystems]

That depends. If you are the kind of guy who can take everything apart, but can't put anything back together again... then I'd say you're in trouble. If you think you can disassemble and reassemble your telephone, then you are probably going to be out $38 plus shipping and a call to Triad Universal at 800-735-6597. If the new flex circuit doesn't do the trick, then you might try upgrading the firmware in your MLX module. If that doesn't do the trick... well... I really hope we don't have to go there, because I really don't know where to go from there.

Good luck and keep us posted on how this works out for you.

David Hall

 

[kristiandg]

Wait, I'm confused. You bought a Magix 2.2 but downgraded it to Legend 7.0 because it had the firmware upgrade? Or were those two different processors...

Kris

 

[TelNetSystems]

I used the firmware upgrade on the Legend R7 V10 upgrade card to upgrade Legend 008 MLX modules in a Merlin Magix 2.2 system (plastic Legend carriers, Legend module cards, Magix processor and messaging in clamshells).

David

 

[kristiandg]

Ah.

Kris

 

[SYQUEST]

This information is very enlightening. I have had a couple of sets on a system with this problem, but I thought it was wiring or a bad port. I changed everything but the set because the set had been changed previously by someone else. So when my repaired sets come back this will be the first one to be replaced.

As far as taking the MLX phones apart, these are really simple compared to some other sets. I had one that had spilled coffee on it and thought it was gone! But my customer changed the set with a spare one so the electrolysis did not have a chance to "eat" the flex board. I just washed the board and membrane in water with Amway's LOC then dried them with compressed air then reassembled and tested. So far it is still working, that was two months ago. The reason I consider these sets easy is because the buttons are attached to the membrane and don't fall out when you take the thing apart, like some of the other brands and then you get them mixed up upon reassembly.

Some observations about QPPCNs, I have searched for different ones at different times to no avail. It seems that Avaya puts some of them on their site for a short period of time then removes them or puts them in some area that can't be accessed by non-dealer types(like us). Now maybe if some Avaya people would like to tell us what is really going on since they should have the inside story about this and the QPPCNs, that would make this problem much clearer. Some of the weird things they do don't surprise me. I worked for Western Electric back in the 1970s and sometimes they did some really odd things with the BOCs.

I'll check out the "refurbsupplies" site and see what they have... Thanks for the tip!

....JIM....

 

[DaVinici]

Has anybody tried the the C1 power supply,I have run into this under powered problem before.The MM is a power hog and will cause spikes.Change it and see if
your still having the same problem.

 

[drewmich]

Dan,

You can definately have power issues with the MMSG R2.0/2.5/3.0 mods on a Legend config if you don't use a 391C1 PS.

It should be noted that some of the Magix Forced Upgrade PCMCIA cards are just processor software upgrades and some also have extensive module upgrades also. Magix R2.2 does not but R2.1 - V6.0 I believe does. The latest Magix R3.0 Release Verion 7 does have ALL the latest upgrades on the Forced Upgrade card.

I think I have a list at the office of each card and the upgrades they hold. Email if you want it and I'll try to find it.

Andrew Roach
President - Drew Telecom Group, Inc.
Lucent Voice Mail-Component-Transtalk Repair Specialists
Lucent/Avaya Telecom Brokers/Resellers
drew@triton.net
269-685-5400 - voice
269-685-5500 - fax