Past tense of Stop-Loss 1

[rjoubert]

I saw the trailer for the new movie, "Stop Loss", last night. In one scene, there is an Army sergeant telling Ryan Phillippe's character that he has been "stop lossed" or "stop lost." Which is correct for the past tense of stop loss? I did a quick search on Google for both spellings, and I saw references to both.

In case the definition of a military stop loss helps to clear things up...

STOP LOSS means extending a military person in the Guard or Reserves, or on active duty, beyond what their normal separation date would be. Those who join the military agree to this provision under paragraph 9c of the enlistment contract states:

In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends, unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States.

 

[rjoubert]

I believe the correct term would be "I've been drafted."

Per the definition in my OP, STOP LOSS means extending the service of someone who is already serving in the military (active or reserves). When someone is DRAFTED, they are not currently serving in the military.

 

[SQLSister]

Disagree, involuntary service (forcing people to stay beyond when they wanted to) is drafted as far as I'm concerned. It's just a hidden draft. It isn't anymore ok to keep people who want to leave than it is to force nonsoldiers to serve.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[rjoubert]

I see your point, but the fact of the matter is that the US military has a different term for both situations.

 

[rjoubert]

These definitions are taken directly from the DOD Dictionary of Military Terms (

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/).

Draft

The conscription of qualified citizens in military service.

Stop-Loss

Presidential authority under Title 10 US Code 12305 to suspend laws relating to promotion, retirement, or separation of any member of the Armed Forces determined essential to the national security of the United States ("laws relating to promotion" broadly includes, among others, grade tables, current general or flag officer authorizations, and E8 and 9 limits). This authority may be exercised by the President only if Reservists are serving on active duty under Title 10 authorities for Presidential Reserve Call-up, partial mobilization, or full mobilization.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Does that mean that enforcing the conditions of a voluntarily signed contract constitutes drafting?


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[rjoubert]

My father had originally signed up to enlist in the Navy, but before he got his orders to go to boot camp, he was drafted into the Army. The draft order took precedence over his signed enlistment contract.

 

[Michael52x]

Ooooohhh,,, "transitive"
That's what happens in "stopping a loss". You transition into an active enlistee. It's still conscription, and that's wrong.

"Impatience will reward you with dissatisfaction" RMS Cosmics'97

 

[SantaMufasa]

It's still conscription, and that's wrong.

Might conscription ever have a justification? What is your basis for discounting conscription as wrong? ...Just curious.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[ESquared]

Erik, if you agree that "stop-loss" has become, and I quote, "a compound word single term distinct from the two-word concept of stopping loss", then why would suggest a two term alternative ("they've stopped loss, so my enlistment has been extended.") that completely ignores the distinction?

I wasn't really arguing for any position, but sort of "exploring it out loud."

If one does say "they've stopped loss," to me it is not the same term as "a stop-loss" (compared to "a stop-loss order" where the article modifies the noun "order" rather than making "stop-loss" a noun). So depending on which meaning one intends, there are options for how to say it.

Maybe an example is in order.

[ul]I picked up the pizza.
I made a pizza pickup. (or "pick-up.")[/ul]

Let's say we develop a new legitimate usage such as "I pick-upped the pizza." To me it is clear that this is a distinct term (thus allowing the distinct usage) from "I picked up the pizza." They happen to say almost the same thing, but one is using natural language about picking stuff up, whereas the other one is using the past tense of a particular term, a something-or-other phrase that you can probably tell me exactly the name of, that was first nouned, then verbed.

I frankly don't know what's the best way to indicate past tense of the concept "stop-loss." It all kind of depends on how you think about it and what you are intending to mean.

Many people find nothing wrong with "pickup pizza here" on a sign, but to me this usage is incorrect. It should be "pick up pizza here" or "pizza pickup here." But maybe that's just me.

 

[SantaMufasa]

But maybe that's just me.

It's not just you, Erik...since I agree with you, it's I, as well. <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> but one is using natural language about picking stuff up, whereas the other one is using the past tense of a particular term, a something-or-other phrase that you can probably tell me exactly the name of, that was first nouned, then verbed.
The term is "English evolution".

Both are very normal and natural in English usage. The nouning of adjectives and the verbing of nouns, and adjectives for that matter, has been going on for hundreds of years. The only difference between what you call "one is using natural language" and "the other one is using the past tense of a particular term" is that one evolved into "natural" language years before you were born, and the other evolved very recently.

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[CajunCenturion]

"Pickup pizza here" is wrong, but for a completely different reason, and has no grammatical similarity with stop-loss.

"Pick up" is a phrasal verb. Phrasal verbs are the combination of a verb (to pick) and a preposition (up), and inflections are applied to the verb portion of the phrase.


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[ESquared]

I didn't mean to draw a similarity with the grammar or the parts of speech involved, but was giving an example of how similar phrases often mean something completely different.

I do agree that a large part of the difference in my examples is the age of the language evolution, but I don't think that is all.

When words and phrases evolve in language, they often take on a new life that changes their legitimate usage. And then current use of the old term no longer means everything the old term used to mean.

Imagine if the concept of poking holes in another's argument was used by many people for a long period as "I will pokehole your argument (or perhaps you)."

Because of the new usage and the way it is handled differently grammatically, eventually "poking holes in an argument" could mean something different from "pokeholing an argument." The difference might be subtle, or it might be profound, but no longer are the two usages identical even if they might have been at first.

inflections are applied to the verb portion of the phrase.

I'm not getting that.

Get up. Fancy getup.
The two uses of "get[ ]up" are inflected differently. The stress is on the preposition for the phrasal verb, and on the verb portion for the noun.

Last:

"a pick up truck event" sounds like muscled guys lifting a truck
"a pickup truck event" sounds like people driving trucks, instead.

"making the sun shine" sounds like fixing a broken stellar body
"making the sunshine" sounds like a fantasy story about sunlight manufacture

While these don't grammatically parallel "stop-loss" and "stopping loss" they do highlight how usages can differ. Even if ultimately meaning the same thing, the individual words themselves do not mean the same thing.

So back to what I was offering before. "They stopped loss and now my enlistment is still active" may ultimately mean the same thing as "they stop-lossed me" but the two usages "stopped loss" and "stop-lossed" are NOT different manifestations of the same terms, even though they use similar words.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Get up. Fancy getup.
The two uses of "get[ ]up" are inflected differently. The stress is on the preposition for the phrasal verb, and on the verb portion for the noun.

'Fancy getup' is not an inflected verb of the verb phrase 'get up'. "Got up" is an inflection of the verb phrase "get up"; "Getting up" is an inflection of the verb phrase "get up".

"They stopped loss and now my enlistment is still active" may ultimately mean the same thing as "they stop-lossed me" but the two usages "stopped loss" and "stop-lossed" are NOT different manifestations of the same terms, even though they use similar words.

I beg to differ, but I'm certainly open to seeing the etymology of the two phrases "stopped loss" and "stop-lossed" to confirm they're not manifestations of the same terms.

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[2ffat]

This is very similar to the past tense of backup. I still say backed up because backuped just doesn't sound right. Of course, stop-loss just doesn't sound right to me in the first place.

James P. Cottingham
-----------------------------------------
[sup]I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229![/sup]

 

[CajunCenturion]

That's exactly right 2ffat because back up is a verb phrase and the past tense is backed up, with the inflection coming on the verb portion of the phrase (back), not on the preposition (up). The noun 'backup' is a different part of speech.

The difference is that 'stop-loss' is not a verb phrase, but rather a compound verb, and so the past tense would be stop-lossed.

I can appreciate that stop-loss doesn't sound right, but that's because it's so new that we're not used to it.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that 'stop-loss' (adjective, noun, and/or verb) will be a 2008 Word of the Year.


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[carp]

I believe the past tense of "Stop Loss" is the same as the present tense: "Screwed".

 

[harebrain]

I haven't seen it yet, so here's my .02: if you're subjected to a stop-loss order, you've been loss-stopped.

 

[ncotton]

Stop loss" is a verb in its' self, inflecting an action, and not representative directly to either of the individual words "Stop" or "loss", so the past participle must be "stop lossed". Effectively making the verb "stoploss" and, making that the PP using standard rules.

same as the term "green lit" (as in "ready to go" / "authorised", meaning to "get the green light". If we look at the other side of the argument, it would be "greened light" which makes NO SENSE.

Neil J Cotton
Technical Consultant
Anix

 

[PhunWithPhilip]

As an animal lover, I'm loathe to help beat this poor, dead horse any more, but here goes....
Even if "stop loss" has become accepted as a compound word, used as a verb, you still need to remember that modifications to compound words are applied to the appropriate subcomponent.
Examples: mothers-in-law, not mother-in-laws; passersby, not passerbys (or passerbies)
Considering this, the conjugation of the compound would be applied to the verb subcomponent: "I stopped-loss you yesterday."
Yes, I'm a nerd...what's your point? I don't think that's a particularly potent insult in this forum.

-PG