Paradox or Access? 3

[Earth]

Hi
My company is currently looking at the advantages of the two software packages. Cost is an issue. So is the fact that we currently have a fairly large Access database.
So my basic questions are:
(a) Are there any tools available to aid in converting an Access97 db to Paradox?
(b) Does Paradox offer any major advantages over Access (aside from the obvious it's not a Microsoft product and is therefore.... cheaper)?
(c) Pertaining to the Paradox Developer's Edition...the Corel website states "Develop custom applications, then distribute them royalty-free with Paradox 9 Runtime". Does this mean that, in a given company, one copy of Developer's Edition could be purchased, a db created, and then this db could be distributed/installed to all other PC's in the company without having to buy other Paradox licenses?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure I'll have more to ask.

 

[Miros]

a) I believe Paradox itself could open/resave your Access database using ODBC (I'm a little under the weather, so be nice if I mess up the acronyms).

b) I've heard that Access can lose large numbers of records for no particular reason; i.e. Paradox might be more reliable. But this could be just a rumor/MS bashing.

c) Not sure if you need multiple licenses or not, but you can buy extra copies/licenses for cheap from a site aimed at VARs. I'll post the link when I feel better.

Some other questions to consider:

Do you have any rabid Access or Paradox fans who will be impossible to live with if they don't get to use their favorite package?

Does your company have a large amount of manhours tied up in learning Access to the current level? Is your primary developer familiar with either package? If the answers are few and not really, I think Paradox is easier to learn.

Do you want to do high power SQL queries? Access does these better. Do you like QBE? I think Paradox does this better (personal opinion).

I haven't personally tried look-ups from a huge database, but Paradox does better than Approach, which whimps out at about 3k records (count, not size). Approach uses combo boxes like Access does, and Paradox uses a popup scrolling window.

P.S. I don't recommend Approach. It's a nice product, but not really suited for large DB (3-10K records per file) manipulations.

 

[riley]

A lot depends on your love of Mr Gates!! But of course it's the others who have to use the DB that will be complaining if they don't Paradox - so that one's up to you and the politicians in your company!!
But I was going to say, that as regards the developer version (which I use) I bought it and use it on the basis that I can freely distribute with the runtime bit - which is something that you need to be a little rich to do with Access. I can only suggest just to get a belt and braces approach you contact Corel to confirm your query about the distribution.
Otherwise, I would agree with all the points Miros makes.

 

[Earth]

I have also heard the "Access losing records" rumour.

What is a VAR?

>Do you have any rabid Access or Paradox fans who will be impossible to live with if they don't get to use their favorite package?

Working in a geotechnical engineering firm, not too many people like going near computers at all. Most of the near comptuer illiterate people here have become accostomed to using Access, and therefore I think swapping to Paradox would post some problems. In general, which would be the most user friendly for the end user?


>Does your company have a large amount of manhours tied up in learning Access to the current level? Is your primary developer familiar with either package? If the answers are few and not really, I think Paradox is easier to learn.

In short, yes. I am the developer. I have spent the last year adding major functionality to the front end of our Access db: this new version is ready for release (I learnt it from scratch). So swapping to Paradox (which by the moment is appearing to be the more and more financially viable option) will be most painful to... me - because I have never even seen Paradox. In all seriousness, it will make it very hard for a long while for all involved. But the cost is a HUGE factor here. Microsoft's prices are outrageous. But I suppose that will always be the case with Microsoft's market domination. They have the power to demand the high prices, and therefore do.

I shall contact Corel to ask about the distribution question. Thanks!

 

[footpad]

Earth,

>> What is a VAR?

A Value Added Reseller, someone who builds a complete software package and sells you all requisite licenses to support it. Not quite a consultant and not quite a commercial retailer. Somewhere between.

To answer some of the other questions raised in the thread:

>> (a) Are there any tools available to aid in converting an Access97 db to Paradox?

Not that I'm aware of, however, the current version of BDE (v5.1.1) can open Access97 tables natively, e.g. as if they were Paradox or dBASE tables. This means you can now use Paradox for Windows as a front-end for Access97 and below. (To my knowledge, Access2000 is not yet supported; refer to

http://www.borland.com/devsupport/bde

for details.

BDE is (sigh) Borland's version of ODBC/Jet/ADO, though BDE (aka IDAPI aka ODAPI) shipped first. ODBC was shipped as a response.

Remember, Paradox for Windows is a front-end to the Paradox file-format. It's a little weird, because Corel owns the front-end and Borland owns the file format.

>> (b) Does Paradox offer any major advantages over Access (aside from
>> the obvious it's not a Microsoft product and is therefore.... cheaper)?

There are trade-offs to either. I tend to prefer Paradox over Access because a) I'm biased and b) Paradox tends to handle larger file-server based applications well. For example, most Access applications have trouble moving beyond ~20 (generous) simultaneous users, however Paradox is documented as supporting up to 300 and I've seen it handle 650.

Much depends on the quality of the application. If you're looking at ~500 simultaneous users, then a local database format is not the right tool; you need InterBase, Oracle, Sybase, or MS SQL Server.

Also, I understand that the Paradox community tends to be more responsive than the Access community. Check out Corel's newsgroups and see what sorts of responses that various people get. As I understand it, the Access newsgroups get many questions, but far fewer answers.

>> Does this mean that, in a given company, one copy of Developer's Edition could be
>> purchased, a db created, and then this db could be distributed/installed to all other
>> PC's in the company without having to buy other Paradox licenses?

In a word, yes, though in practice, you may want to buy administrative licenses for targeted users. There are times when bad things happen and you want other people to help. However, according to the license, yes, one Dev. Ed can be used to depoy apps to as many people are you desire.

Picking up some other thoughts raised in the thread:

>> Do you want to do high power SQL queries? Access does these better.

That's debateable. Borland has not done a good job of documenting the improvements to BDE SQL support over the years. For example, if you're familiar with Paradox 5.0, then you may be pleasantly surprised to learn that you can now do sub-selects.

On the other hand, there is often a great advantage to chaining multiple queries together. I think this is really a wash between the two until one or the other fully supports triggers, stored procedures and other remote server concepts in a local, file-server format.

>> Do you like QBE? I think Paradox does this better (personal opinion).

QBE was a Paradox hallmark, one that borrowed heavily from earlier work on IBM's DB2. Unfortunately, it has receive no attention (nor updates) in the last several revisions. Also, QBE queries get translated to SQL queries internally.

Mind you, I personally love QBE. However, LocalSQL can perform some tricks that QBE cannot, such as selecting by months or years.

>> In general, which would be the most user friendly for the end user?

As the developer, you are solely responsible for the end-user's experience. Your users could care less about file format issues. While a little dated now, you might consider locating a copy of Alan Cooper's "About Face," which discusses many ideas regarding the usability of software. Even if it is dated, the ideas he raises are worth pondering.

>> So swapping to Paradox (which by the moment is appearing to be the more and
>> more financially viable option) will be most painful to... me - because I have never
>> even seen Paradox.

Okay; you're going to have some growing pains because Parodox *is* different. There are things that will strike you as silly, perhaps because they are. However, I like to think of Paradox as the capable, less-flashy worker that does the job right, versus the flash-in-that-pan that wimps out when really tested.

In the sprit of full disclosure, I'm as rabid a fan as you'll find. I strongly prefer Paradox over Access; however, I fully realize that it's what works for me. Your mileage may vary.

I am biased, though, I worked on the Paradox Development Team (at Borland) for five years.

-- Lance

 

[Miros]

"Borland has not done a good job of documenting the improvements to BDE SQL support over the years. For example, if you're familiar with Paradox 5.0, then you may be pleasantly surprised to learn that you can now do sub-selects."

Awesome! I can actually use all my painfully acquired knowledge of SQL and ignore the non-helpful (to me anyhow) visual design screens...

:searches for her DBMangagement book:

Rose/Miros

 

[Miros]

"I have spent the last year adding major functionality to the front end of our Access db: this new version is ready for release (I learnt it from scratch)."

Seriously, most of the stuff in Access and Paradox (and even Approach) works approximatly the same way. I'm self taught in Paradox and Approach and learned Access through a class I audited.

The major difficulty I see for you is figuring out what things are called in the scripting language.

I almost drove myself nuts one time looking for the command to put the cursor in a certain field... Did a zillion searches on focus and cursor and pointer... the answer: MoveTo(fieldname).

Rose/Miros

 

[buttersoft]

The Runtime comes on CD. You create your database, and you can freely copy the Runtime to as many PC's as you like.

That is how I understand it. Steve Butterworth

 

[Guest_imported]

I have been working with Access for years and have never seen an instance where it just "loses records". I also believe it's much easier to get help with Access than Paradox simply because of the number of Access users out there and all the resources that are available.

Putting all the MSFT bashing aside, I do prefer Paradox if your system is going to have more than 6-8 concurrent users or if it's larger than 100MB. Paradox outperforms Access significantly in these circumstances. If your DB is smaller with fewer uses, or if performance isn't a big issue, I prefer Access because it's easier to learn and work with.

 

[ssilver]

Earth

I certainly appreciate this thread as I am a Paradox consultant whose main client is now thinking of converting all of my applications over to Access mainly because of their (mis)understanding of network response speed (even with over 50 users). Obviously I've been quite opposed to that idea. I've critiqued the original proposal . I understand that Access is a flat database whereas Paradox is relational -- much more valuable both in function and ability.
Lance is quite correct in his evaluation of these products and the advantages of Paradox.
Hopefully, you'll make the right decision.

-- Stan

 

[Miros]

Access can be relational... and has a few features Pdox doesn't (and vice versa)...

There's no one thing you can point to and say This package is clearly superior to that one (such as flat vs. relational, all modern db s/w is relational).

In this case, it looks like money is going to win out over most other concerns...

Good luck!

Rose/Miros

 

[JoeNg]

Use Access if:
You are the only “technical person” in the company and don’t want to grow up as a programmer.
You have relative small amount of data
You have few users on the network. 5 or less.
You want “free” database. (Comes “free” with MS-Office professional version and above)
You throw a penny out the window and hit an Access programmer.
You want better product support and resources.
You don't mind that you cannot distribute your application as a stand alone product.

Use Paradox if:
You want to be a hot-dog programmer.
You have large amount of data to chew through
You have many users on the network.
You want to pay for a good database.
YOu throw a penny out the window and hit oh-darn-it an Access programmer
You don't mind limited product support and resources. Ie. a real programmer.
You want to distribute your application as a standalone product.

 

[Bystander]

I have enjoyed reading this particular thread. I have used Paradox for nine years but for the last five years have had so called Access developers turning their nose up at Paradox. I have always sensed Pdox is a better quality developers application but never had the facts to justify it.

Has anyone ever used Pdox with tables containing >10K records?

Regards

Bystander

 

[HUD199]

Dan Ehrmann has written many papers and taught Paradox developers in seminars around the US and overseas. See examples below:

http://se-ed.net/thaidelphicc/Features.html

 

[Bystander]

Hud199,

Thanks there is some really powerful information at that location.

 

[bcindc]

Yes,
you can buy the one developer version, to write your applications, and use the run-time at all the work stations. At one time, years ago, there was a $15/copy run-time fee, but I believe that fee no longer exists.
Bcindc

 

[footpad]

Various comments:

>> Has anyone ever used Pdox with tables
>> containing >10K records?

Yes, frequently. The largest I've worked with had 250K records. No problems.

Also:

>>

http://se-ed.net/thaidelphicc/Features.html

Appears to no longer contain the content. I'm trying to track it down, but if anyone notices where it's gone, please post it's new location.

>> $15/copy run-time fee (for Runtime applications)

That's been gone a long time. In fact, one of the best reasons to upgrade to Paradox 10 (via WPO/Pro 2002) is that it now includes Runtime with Paradox. There's no longer a different version for developers.

 

[edunaway]

It also depends on what is in your database, access creates one giant database with everything in one .mbd, paradox maintains each table separately.

We have a number of databases that often end either referencing a table in another database or the databases need to the merged together. In paradox this means just moving the table into the correct directory.

One benefit of paradox over access is in REPORTS. With paradox you create a report and that report can be run with any table as long as the table has all the fields that the report requires.

I've also found it much easier to train users in QBE than in access, even if they already know access.

 

[Eviltwin]

Excellent Thread!!!

I have been using Paradox since 4.5. I currently have 8.0 and will be getting Developer 10 because it has runtime.

The learning curve for ObjectPAL is steep if you are not a programmer. I was'nt but I learned. It's worth it! I have grown to love Paradox. Documentation has always been a problem. So don't expect to have your hand held if you want to use Paradox.

Tex-Tips has been excellent to me and has gotten me out of some sticky jams.

I am fortunate to have just gotten brand new gear that includes Access. I have not done a complete analysis of it and probably won't. What I have seen so far does'nt make me drool.

Yes--that's right-- MS bashing.

I have never had a problem with multiple users on Paradox unless my code was wrong.

The end-user is everything. If you design for what they are doing and consider what they are hoping to achieve you should be successfull in how they experience the program.

Go Paradox!!

Thanks everyone!!

 

[ssilver]

I agree with the enthusiam expressed above. But as a consultant I was let go and have yet to find any more Paradox work. As I was curious about Access since I saw how it was taking off in the industry, I did try to get exposed to it but found that it's really not very exicting. I want to find another Paradox job which I'm sure does exist, but when I see a possibility it always seems to have other requirements to fulfill that are not in my background.

Does anyone have any suggestions for work in Paradox in the NY area?

Thanks.