OPEIU Union for IT Folks? 6

[ctarr]

I've got a question. Are any of you currently in a union? At my job there are about 50 IT folks, from networking, operations, repair & maintenance all the way to development and administration.

OPEIU is a union that is attempting to form here at my County. We (IT) are being grouped with about 140 other employees (all sorts of jobs outside of IT) who are not in management positions, and being given the opportunity to vote to join the union.

What do you think, what would you do and what would you ask?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[algernonsidney]

The purpose of the government is to protect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Soviet Union also claimed that its laws were favorable to the "country's economic health." We saw how that system worked out.

I never said that we should sit back and do nothing. I would like to see IT workers organize.

There was a time when jobs in the high-wage Eastern US were sent to the lower-wage Western US. It didn't hurt the country overall.

I was unemployed for most of last year, so I am well aware of the magnitude of the situation.

What do you want to do, svolpe?

Are you suggesting that the US enact a bunch of high tariffs like it did in 1930? These tariffs made the world-wide depression even worse and consequently helped bring about WW2.

Economic isolationism is just about dead and rightfully so. Unionism isn't far from it, and that's why unions really need to get rid of their socialist biases.

Chris

 

[svolpe]

Chris:

Unfortunately, I can't confirm what the Soviet Union did or did not claim for its people. I don't believe there's much relevance in comparing what happened in the Soviet Union to what's going on today with many U.S. companies shifting their operations overseas.

Economic isolation sounds so dirty and it goes against all the efforts of the current and much hyped trend of globalization. But just as dirty, these companies are scrambling to move everything they can offshore to take advantage of lax labor laws, low wages, lax environmental regulation if any at all, among many other things. It is these laws and higher-paying jobs that is the backbone of this country's economy and in turn what makes the U.S. so strong and such a desirable place to live.

Unlike most citizens of the developing nations where many U.S. companies are flocking, American citizens have tremendous opportunity to create successful and happy lives for themselves and their families. This starts with gainful employment that pays competitively. If, as forecasted, over 136 billion in wages and over 3.3 million jobs are to be moved overseas in industries including IT, accounting, legal, and others; what are the people of this country supposed to do to earn a living? Should we all be content with jobs paying minimum wage? Instead of these developing nations becoming more like the U.S. (inasmuch as providing opportunity and freedom for its citizens), over the long-term, actions such as offshoring will make the U.S. more like these developing nations.

In response to your question as to what I want to do, I don't believe there's one easy solution. However, I do believe that these companies should not be allowed to enjoy all the benefits of being based in the United States and then turn around and skirt their responsibilities toward this country and its people for their own greed. The American economy is give and take with goods and services constantly changing hands. If we’re all destined to work minimum wage, insignificant jobs, to whom are these companies going to sell their very expensive products and services?

 

[palbano]

>> So what would you suggest as a solution?

Ok i stated this in another thread in this forum (or maybe "where is IT going in next 5 years&quot and not a single person commented on it.

The only hope of meaningful change in this country is major campaign finance reform. If we can’t get that legislated then we have ZERO chance to create real changes in ANY issue be it this one or environmental issues etc. As long as congress is bought and paid for by big business what do you think the outcome will be!? It’s not rocket science!

Write your congress men/women every day regarding “campaign finance reform” ONLY. Stick to that single subject until we are successful, then tackle the others. If an elected official does not vote for CFR then in the next election be sure to vote for someone new.

Big business is using the age old “divide and conquer” technique against us. As long as we are fighting 1000 battles we will never win the war.

“But, that’s just my opinion… I could be wrong.”
-pete

 

[CajunCenturion]

I'm still hoping that someone can shed some light on just how collective bargaining can work in a situation where you've got a thousand different IT professionals working for a hundred or so different and completely unrelated companies, where not all of them are playing the bad guy.

Who calls the strike, and who strikes against whom? Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[algernonsidney]

Svolpe,

Here's a solution. If companies are moving to avoid environmental regulation, then get rid of the environment regulations. This was big factor in 2000. One big reason that Ozone Al lost West Virginia was that the United Mine Workers despise him.

I should apologize. I don't think you are full-blown socialist. You are what I call a "thirdist"--someone who believes in a "third way," that unstable mix of capitalism and socialism.

I am reminded that back in the 1930's, unions were largely supporters of the biggest pyramind scheme ever concocted--Social Security. Thanks a lot, guys.

Your question about who will buy the goods is a good one. I wonder about the future of the country, too. Are we all going to be service workers, who in fact produce nothing? We still manage to grow most of our own food, but that's about it. But we have thousands of lawyers and others who contribute absolutely nothing of value.

 

[KornGeek]

But we have thousands of lawyers and others who contribute absolutely nothing of value.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to speak up over that one. It's true that many law suits are pointless and petty. However, unless you're proposing a radical change to our justice system (such as assuming all who are tried are guilty and letting lawsuits be handled like The People's Court), then lawyers are a necessary part of our society.

Every job that somebody gets paid to do contributes something of value. If there was no value, people would not pay for it. This includes jobs such as cutting lawns, babysitting, garbage collection, street sweeping, technical support, marketing, HR, professional sports, acting, writing comic strips, critiquing movies, practicing medicine, etc. Each of these jobs may have differing levels of contribution to society in terms of significance, but they all contribute in some way.

On to the union idea. Both of my parents belong to unions, and I have mixed feelings about them. They can help when it comes to collective bargaining and protection from abuses. However, I don't like the way people are forced to join and pay membership dues. No wonder the mafia was attracted to unions. It's legalized extortion.

While I feel that it would be nice to have some sort of protection of our rights, I don't think a union would help most of us. In my mind, it all goes back to what CajunCenturion said. When you have so many unrelated companies, how do you manage collective bargaining? What real pressure can we put on a company, and how do we avoid putting the pressure on those who don't deserve it?

In the future, this may be a good idea, but at the moment, I feel that a union would just be an additional expense that wouldn't truly benefit us.

This is just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth, and it's probably not worth the paper it's printed on.

 

[mutant]

The CSEA isn't doing California State Government IT workers a favor. We are lumped in with Admin rather than being in our own unit. IT can't get an appropriate raise because that would mean that an equal raise would be given to Admin people.

There is no chance to strike.

The union seems to be useless when it comes to wages, or benefits. We have a hiring freeze, can't get a promotion, and can only look for jobs within our current organization.

All I see is people wanting to retire. The union isn't improving the work situation.

In the early days, slaves were provided free food and housing with an occasional gift of money. Now that slavery is outlayed, the State of California finds it easier to not provide free food or housing, nor adequate compensation to acquire adequate food and housing.

The cost of housing in the State of California far exceeds the cost of living used for any pay increases. The high taxation by the State, the high cost of energy (managed by the State), and the general high cost of everything isn't reflected in what the CSEA negotiates for a pay increase.

 

[KornGeek]

mutant,
You compare yourself to a slave, but there is one fundamental difference. You can quit. There are other jobs out there. Maybe not in IT right now, but there are other jobs. It is your choice to work where you do. If you are as dissatisfied as you sound, leave.

 

[svolpe]

KornGeek:

Right you are, but in mutant's defense, sometimes it's much easier said than done, especially in today's economy. We're not just experiencing an IT slowdown, but a broad economy slowdown that crosses into almost all industries.

 

[algernonsidney]

I agree on this one. It's not that easy to move in this type of economy, nor is it that easy to quit.

There is a reason why I call it "Taxifornia."

I would love to see an IT union. It could have some benefits. What I don't want to see are new political action committees, but that seems to be what many union people want.

Chris

 

[CajunCenturion]

algernonsidney - I would love to see an IT union.

OK - now please explain just how you see it working. Let's take mutant's situation for starters. What can the union do.

Put yourself in that same union. What can the union do to help your situation? If your union were to strike on your behalf, who actually will be walking out of their jobs? Who would actually be on the picket line. Do you think the programmers from the bank across town will walk out in your support. How about the programmers at the widget factory down the street, will they walk out and join your picket line?

I am NOT against the idea of Union, in fact, I'm quite open to it. But until someone can explain to me how such a union can be constructed, how you can gain of the strengh of collective bargaining, or even to define the collective. I'm not even sure you can make a distinction between worker and management. In IT, those lines are often blurred. How can your target the offender and still take care of your membership?

I am hoping that someone can provide some practical proposals to the questions. But until then, talk of a union is nothing but sour grapes. Let's put some bite into the bark. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[KornGeek]

As far as &quot;Taxifornia&quot; goes, I'm living in California, providing the sole income for a family of five. We live in a nice house, and are making payments on a new minivan. There are things that we have to do without (like cable TV <gasp>), but we're living comfortably. Nobody here is a slave. It may not be easy to find something else, but there are jobs out there.

If you feel trapped, maybe you need to rethink your priorities. Look at what income you could get from a job you'd like, and figure out how you could live off of it. The real estate market right now in Northern California has shifted to a buyer's market and rents are down. It's possible if it truly matters to you. I understand that it can be challenging and discouraging, but I have a problem with people comparing themselves to slaves. We don't get whipped, beaten, or abused anywhere near the amount they did. (Althouh we are often treated as less than human and more like property.) Just keep in mind that if you stay in your job, you're actively choosing to do so.

Remember, car dealerships are always hiring. There are options if you're truly unhappy.

 

[Routerman18250]

I think what we in IT need is not so much a Union but some sort of real professional organization. The Lawyers have the BAR, Doctors have the AMA , etc.. These organizations lobby on behalf of thier members and get results. IT is going through major changes and most of them are not good. We need a collective voice but not really a Union. If thier is already one out there that I'm not aware of please let me know.

 

[KornGeek]

That would be one method of forming a &quot;Union&quot; of sorts. By having an organization that licenses only those who meet certain requirements, employers would (in theory) only want to hire those who were licensed. This organization could then have some bargaining power against abuses. I'm still not sure exactly how it would weild it's power, but it's the beginning of a concept that I might get behind.

This would also help weed out the incompetents that we've all worked with.

Of course, it might also hurt the skilled guys who don't have degrees yet.

Well, if nothing else, it's something to consider.

 

[svolpe]

There are two existing organizations I can think of...

Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) and
Association of Information Technology Professionals (AITP)

From my knowledge, the ITAA is an association/union for industry employers and vendors. They lobby Congress, in the name of &quot;not enough skilled workers in the U.S.&quot;, to lift the ceiling on HB-1 visas. They're also the authors of the bogus reports claiming that hundreds of thousands (and perhaps millions) of IT jobs will go unfilled. Several months back, they took quite a bit of heat for this and were required to correct their report. I view the ITAA as our enemy...perhaps someone else could shed some light on if they do anything to benefit us...although, I doubt it.

The second group, I believe, is an association for individuals like us, but as far as providing a platform for bargaining power or a collective voice of some sort, I do not think such is the intention, although, I’m not entirely sure. Does anyone know more about this group?

 

[Routerman18250]

I have heard of the ITAA and would agree with your assesment. I never considered them an organization for the IT pro. I have never heard of the other group (AITP) but will do some homework on them. Thanks.

 

[dilettante]

I hate to say too much because I've tired of being shouted down here on Tek-Tips...

But don't you wonder how much you might be contributing to the problem by answering questions here? Something to consider before offering tutorials or &quot;full code&quot; solutions next time.

It is really bad to see things get to where they seem to be now. I don't think the auto industry handled offshore competition very well. IT seems to have bypassed the notion of competing and gone straight to sending the work out of country. Just who are we &quot;training&quot; here ourselves?

I'm not sure what we really can do, but it occurs to me we might be signing our own pink slips.

Somebody had to say it. Guess I'll be the bad guy on this one. Hopefully this one doesn't get me booted.

 

[algernonsidney]

I would like to see an organization of IT professionals set up some type of training or educational system. The profession needs more than certification mills just trying to make a quick buck. Just today, I heard one advertising on the radio: &quot;Get certified, change your life, make big bucks.&quot; The worst thing is that people are still buying into it. I would love to put them all out of business.

Such an organization could also become a resource for consultants or temps. We need something much better than the pimps like Tek Systems or RHI Consulting. The main reason why I advise people against going into IT is the fact that so many companies don't want to hire IT people--they want to outsource them or hire &quot;consultants.&quot;

These are two big issues that groups like WashTech seem to be ignoring. WashTech seems more concerned with just being a political action committee.

Chris

 

[KornGeek]

dilettante,
I disagree with you, but I can see your point. Yes, we are helping those who probably shouldn't be in the business by offering solutions. However, I prefer to think of it as everybody who should be in the business should want to continually learn new skills. The forums here are a great resource to speed that along, and help bring everybody up. Those who shouldn't be doing this for a living probably won't be dedicated enough to learn all they need to know from Tek-Tips and other similar sites. I think these forums by their nature help the most those who truly deserve it.

Also, many of us work for small companies where we are often called upon to do things outside of our specialties. These companies can't afford to bring someone else in, so we need to do it, taking time away from our primary jobs. These forums help get these tasks accomplished faster, allowing us to work more in our specialties.

That being said, I feel that full-code answers should rarely be given as responses to questions. The problem is that doesn't encourage the recipient to grow and learn. However, full-code FAQs and tutorials are often helpful, because often new techniques are introduced, which can lead to further research and learning.

For me, these sites aren't about answers. They're about learning to ask the right questions.

I hope nobody yells at you over your post. I see nothing wrong with stating your opinion, even if it is an unpopular opinion.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think dilettante does make some good points. I too disagree with the posting of full code solutions for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that spoils the unqualified and allows them to fool their boss with their talent. Precedent has been set and unless proper discipline is imposed on the forum by its own participants, things can and will spiral downward.

Although you are correct KornGeek, in that any true IT professional would also want to continue the learning process, there are far too many use here simply to cash out whatever they can in the IT field. These are the individuals that weighted down the industry and brought down overall level of professionalism within our industry.

On the other hand, nothing can do more damage to an industry than constant criticism from within. Our industry does have its problems, and at least IMHO, one of the major ones is that we, as an industry, allow unqualified leeches to consider themselves IT professionals. I think that professional organizations are a viable option, and can certainly go along way to bringing back a strong element of professionalism to our industry, especially when organizational certification, ala AMA or BAR is required before actually practicing the profession. But before that can happen, we must first convince the business community that it’s necessary. When you consider that we have many people inside the industry being constantly critical of industry management, and selling themselves as professionals who don't need a degree, saying that education is not important, no need to understand the underlying theory of computing, etc, etc, etc, then we have a real tough sell. An in that respect, we are our own worst enemy. We can't even decide amongst ourselves what being an IT Professional is really about. If we can't do that internally, we're never going to able to convince anyone outside the industry.

Until such time as there is a concerted effort from within the IT community to clean out the IT community and restore professionalism from within, we will make no progress, and IT organizations will not have any credibility. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein