OPEIU Union for IT Folks? 6

[ctarr]

I've got a question. Are any of you currently in a union? At my job there are about 50 IT folks, from networking, operations, repair & maintenance all the way to development and administration.

OPEIU is a union that is attempting to form here at my County. We (IT) are being grouped with about 140 other employees (all sorts of jobs outside of IT) who are not in management positions, and being given the opportunity to vote to join the union.

What do you think, what would you do and what would you ask?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[elizabeth]

Regarding diversity, I have friends and families who are nurses and belong to a union. They find, again, that negotiations are a problem, as the negotiators do not understand the nature of the work, and focus only on the things they can understand: number of hours, pay rate, etc. They fail to understand and address items that are unique to their profession and truly make a difference, such as patient load vs. level, shift change operational sequence, allowable methods of verifying and documenting doctors orders, etc. I have also heard horror stories about outsourcing IS contracts such as 3 IS contractors of different specialties on site, each with a separate sequence to perform and each able to move a piece of physical equipment, but all standing by until the 4th specialist arrived to move it, according to contract. I would anticipate similar problems with union contracts.

 

[MasterRacker]

Two editorials from Computeruser.Com. The first mostly argues against IT unions, the second argues mostly for them. Both are written by the same person.

http://www.computeruser.com/articles/daily/8,6,1,0902,02.html

http://www.computeruser.com/articles/daily/8,6,1,0916,02.html

Jeff
No matter how bad it is, it can always get worse ....

 

[chicagoAnalyst]

In answer to the question of what good a union could do for IS folks...I'm currently at an employer who has announced that they intend to outsource all IS employees company-wide (many thousands of employees). Of the outsourcing company candidates, a couple from India are at the top of the list.

It would be great if we were guaranteed...
* That we'd get 60 days notice (per the WARN act) of our particular job being 'outsourced'.
* That our pension moneies earned so far would not be handed over to the outsourcer, but would remain liabilities of our current employer (do ERISA and the Pension Guarantee fund even apply to companies based in India??)

Much of my personal stress at the moment is based on the uneasy feeling that my employer may be trying to get around standard Federal employee protections (such as the WARN Act, ERISA, and the Pension Guarantee Fund) by 'outsourcing', ot 'transitioning' us; words that mask the actual result, which would be layoffs.

Despite the economy, luckily I'm still fairly employable - I can get another job, but not with one day's notice, and I sure don't want to lose the pension I've already earned!

chicagoAnaylst

 

[elizabeth]

Thanks, Jeff, for mentioning the excellent articles. Although I don't understand why so many people see unpaid overtime as justifiable. Guess it's just that fear and workaholism run rampant in this field. And either nobody reads classics like Peopleware, or they just can't bring themselves to believe studies that prove overtime negatively impacts productivity. If we went to a 32-to-37.5 hour work week as a standard wtih 4 weeks vacation, productivity would jump in these fields that depend so heavily on creativity.

 

[ctarr]

Wow!! I am so excited at the comments everyone has posted. I knew you would obvisously have a different opinion and point of view.

Just a follow-up for everyone. As I said the Union did not organize (however there is word that they may fight the vote because one of the polling locations was closed early?! It's Florida what do you expect).

The County is now beginning a complete classification and compensation study. Every employee is going to have the opportunity to explain what they do in their daily job as compared to their "job title" and then determine if anyone needs to be reclassified and possibly have a pay adjustment. (I'll just hold my breath).

The reason I see a union being unhelpful to me (and the rest of the IT staff) is that the County Council determines what everyone gets paid. Even when it comes to the Fire/Police/Medical groups who all have unions. Their union reps ask the County what percentage increase the County is going to give everyone (if any) and then the union rep signs the paperwrok. They can't bargin for different rates. The Council will not budge.

The fire union attempted this a few years ago, and after two years of arguing they did not get their raise/adjustment. In fact they never got anything over that 2 year period because they were fighting for more. It basically hurt everyone in fire and now they are 3 years behind everyone else.

I don't want to get screwed out what I should earn because of the effort and time I put in. If the Union can't negotiate then I don't want them to be in the way.

Craig

 

[svolpe]

Ctarr, I can understand why you feel a Union is unnecessary in your case. What is the point of having one if they cannot negotiate anything above and behind what the County Council determines? However, I will say that just because the Council currently has final say in what you and your co-workers earn is no reason to throw your hands up in defeat. Now I'm not a resident of Florida, but doesn't this Council you speak of consist of elected officials? If they refuse to pay people what they're worth and for the benefits realized from the efforts of you and you're co-workers, they should be replaced with leaders who will. Perhaps you would be the one to spearhead such a movement. If the county citizens give these officials such power then they can also take it away. I can almost assure you of one thing...these officials are not stingy when it comes to THEIR compensation.

 

[bludonda]

I'm also glad to see that this has turned into an interesting and ongoing discussion topic! We've been seeing some very good and thoughtful ideas and references presented here lately.

I was thinking about what people have been saying here and elsewhere about this issue and it occurred to me that perhaps instead of an "IT Union", what might be more appropriate is an "IT Guild". Although, I'm not sure what the definitive political or organizational differences would be between the two, a "Guild" to me implies more of the attitude and personality of the IT community and spirit.

Also, after reading the entries here and some casual research on the subject, some obvious conclusions arise from what an organization, whatever its name, should provide it's members. Here's my initial list, feel free to comment on these and/or add your own.
[ul] [li]It should be an effective political means to deal with work place inequities and abuses. [/li]
[li]It should help to provide a fair and reasonable level of employment and benefit security to it's members. [/li]
[li]It should not be used to enable, protect or perpetuate ineffective or unfair work practices or favoritism. [/li]
[li]It should uphold fair and ethical moral standards for its conduct within it's membership and management. [/li]
[li]It should be flexible and innovative in structure to allow diversity, growth and adaptability to changes in the industry employment marketplace. [/li]
[li]It should be useful for both member and management to get the job done right. [/li][/ul]
Anyway, those are all the thoughts I have time for at the moment. I know I'll soon see more from you all. Keep up the good work folks!
==================================
"Forward! Into the Past!" ~ Firesign Theater

 

[MasterRacker]

James Mathewson at ComputerUser has written a thrid article about unions:

http://www.computeruser.com/articles/daily/8,6,1,1014,02.html

Jeff
No matter how bad it is, it can always get worse ....

 

[tjd]

'S one question only... are you a professional...or a plumber? If you are a real pro and frighteningly good at your chosen nitch in this industry, you don't need a union. If you're not, well, grab the three inch stilson and screw in that piece of Java code son! - "Oops! I've joined a club that'll have me as a member?" -

 

[svolpe]

Hey tjd,

What about airline pilots? They have a union. Do you consider them professionals? I hope so--because we trust them with our lives many, many times a day. A union is simply a way to stop one group of people (those who control the purse strings--aka management) from taking advantage of another group of people (the ones who actually get the job done). Contrary to what you'd like to believe, being good at your job doesn't inoculate you from being screwed by management.

By the way, what's wrong with being a plumber? It's a noble, honest trade for many people. Plumbers also provide much needed services...who are you going to call to install your piping when you build a new house? The building you work in now...plumbers are responsible for you not having to visit those blue "pots of gold" whenever nature calls.

 

[bludonda]

Thanks, svolpe!

Couldn't have put it better!

Bludonda
============================
"For he knew not his hole from an ass on the ground." ~ Firesign Theater

 

[elizabeth]

Good third article, thanks Jeff

svolpe, a lot of people give lip-service to that myth, that if you are good at what you do, or work hard, you will be rewarded by the gods. But it's just a belief that is fostered in the workplace to shift blame to the victims, and protect management's image. If you think back what you've seen in the workplace, I'm sure you'll see through this illusion, and remember instances of people who aren't acknowledged for their excellent results or effort. And just as many instances where ignorant and lazy people being rewarded based on something other than their ability and effort. Also, with the layoffs, often the people who are aware you are so good/hard working are laid off too, so you have no record to point to. And if a company decides to trim in a certain area, and you're in that area, your performance makes no difference at all.

 

[svolpe]

This thread has evolved quite a bit...probably a lot more than the original poster expected. With that being said, below is an excerpt from a letter that was sent on my behalf to the SEC secretary. It is most certainly related to our union discussions during the last few months. As a small investor and employee, this type of legislation affects me as well as most Americans directly.

Mutual fund companies have enormous power to shape corporate governance to better protect investors like me from the consequences of overpaid CEOs, entrenched boards of directors and conflicted auditors. Unfortunately, mutual fund companies also have a self-interest in voting with management to avoid disrupting their business relationships.

I expect my mutual fund company to cast its proxy votes--which effectively belong to me and other mutual fund shareholders--so as to protect and promote our interests regardless of the impact that such votes could have on its client relationships.

Requiring mutual funds to disclose their proxy votes in an easily accessible format is the only way that investors can ensure that Fidelity and other mutual fund companies exercise their proxy voting authority to promote our interests rather than to boost their own bottom line.

I strongly urge the SEC to adopt its proposed rule.

If you agree with this please visit

http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/thebigsecret

to sign up and send the same letter on your behalf.

Remember that good ideas are only that unless they're acted upon. And this is the kind of action that will make America a better place for all people.

One more thing...the SEC is accepting comments until Dec. 6th so please do this now.

 

[svolpe]

tjd:

So in your opinion…if a person does not run his/her own business, they’re not worth their salt? Can this be further translated into if a person is employed by someone other than themselves, they’re no good? You did say Good ones run their own business, or if they are working for someone else, they are planning on running their own business. Right?

Successful employers understand and acknowledge that their greatest resources are their employees. Without trustworthy, hard-working, competent employees, a company has nothing! Without such “resources” then surely, the business will fail (or stay very small).

No one said the owner of the business does not have the final say so I’m not sure where that came from. As far as “giving” someone a job…sure, the owner does decide who they would and would not like to hire, but make no mistake about it, when an owner or hiring manager extends a job offer to an individual, it is out of mutual interest and benefit to BOTH parties and not just a “favor” for the individual or some “good deed” performed on behalf of the employer (at least in most cases anyway).

Without out a doubt, everyone in the company has an important role to play for they contribute (no matter how little or how much) to the overall mission of the company. So why shouldn’t these employees be “valued” as humans?

 

[algernonsidney]

I can see how unions might benefit me. There is so much incompetent management out there. It is one of the causes of the dot-com bomb.

Today was a reminder as I finally got my last W-2. I should have gotten it weeks ago. That kind of crap is inexcusable. Unions might serve to protect workers against that.

But based on the talks I have had with some people in WashTech, I don't have much hope for unions.

Workers do need some type of protections, and there needs to be a way to make sure that the best people get the best jobs and paychecks. Unions could make things better, but could also make them worse.

Chris

 

[ctarr]

It appears that off shore work may bring a push to unionize the US workforce.

Check out

http://www.washtech.org/wt/news/industry/display.php?ID_Content=441

I still have a bad feeling in my gut. To push work offshore hurts all of us. But are the unions ready to really support us?

Craig

 

[algernonsidney]

I think workers do need some protections. On Monday I met one of many former Bank One employees. Everyone was in-house. Then one day we were suddenly IBM employees (outsourced but still doing the same work). Then Bank One decided to bring everything back in-house, and all those IBM employees lost their jobs.

Unions are needed to protect against this kind of crap. They are especially needed as a weapon against the pimps--consulting firms, outsourcing, whatever.

I just don't want to see them lobbying for anything.

Chris

 

[svolpe]

ctarr:

Thanks for posting this excellent, yet very alarming article. For all those who didn't read it, here are a few worthy excerpts:


[At Microsoft]But of late, he says, he often hears the phrase, “two heads are better than one,” bantered about, meaning that two Indian developers can be had for the cost of one U.S. counterpart.

“We’re trying to move everything we can offshore,” Forbes quoted Hewlett-Packard Services chief Ann Livermore as saying. “We’re aggressively realigning our resources.” HP already has a presence in India and is also looking to China, which company officials expect to soon rival India for outsourcing services.

Forbes quotes another HP official predicting that many of the company’s web applications for Microsoft’s .Net initiative will be written in India. HP figures a high-end programmer in India costs about $20,000 a year, less than 25 percent of the cost in the United States. They expect Chinese resources to cost even less.

Overall, U.S. employers will move about 3.3 million white-collar service jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas in the next 15 years, up from $4 billion in 2000, according to a study by Forrester Research Inc. Leading the exodus will be the information technology industry, the Cambridge, Mass., firm says.

For the thousands of recently laid-off U.S. computer professionals, the news is not encouraging.“Why do we dupe people into going to college and studying these fields if there will be no jobs?” Bryant asked in a recent interview with the Boston Globe.

Even if IT workers find jobs, they may also find that wages and compensation such as medical insurance and 401K contributions have dropped dramatically.

“Research shows that the 15 to 25 percent decline in wages can be traced to the effects of globalization,” says Jared Bernstein, a Washington D.C-based economist for the Economic Policy Institute. “This used to be true of lower wage workers, but now we see it occurring with IT [workers].”

“My best advice is for IT workers to organize,” Bernstein says. “What tech workers lack is bargaining power that protects them from overseas competition.”

Morello concurs. She says U.S. workers “may find that the only way they can fight this or be heard is through organizing or employee activism.”


It's all about higher profits achieved through lower costs driven by massive greed no matter what the effect is on this country, its economy, and the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who are adversely affected.

The article provides an excellent opportunity to voice your concerns...click below to send a letter to your Representatives and Senators in Congress.

http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/offshoring/

 

[algernonsidney]

Getting the federal government involved will not solve anything. If this is what people are suggesting as a solution, then I guess we really are doomed. It is also going to turn me against unions.

Chris

 

[svolpe]

So what would you suggest as a solution? It's easy to just say "getting the federal government involved will not solve anything", and not provide an alternative response to such an alarming trend.

The United States of America is a nation of laws...laws we all agree as a society to govern ourselves by. And these laws are created, debated, and finally passed in Congress. These very same companies have powerful and vocal lobbyists to "get the federal government involved" so that laws will be passed to benefit them (tax policy, regulation, funding, etc., etc.). So, why shouldn't individuals also use the federal government to pass laws that are favorable to, in this case, the country's economic health and not just special interests?

All too often people seem to forget that the government is supposed to be of the people, for the people, and by the people. To sit back and do nothing is a far more dangerous road.