OPEIU Union for IT Folks? 6

[ctarr]

I've got a question. Are any of you currently in a union? At my job there are about 50 IT folks, from networking, operations, repair & maintenance all the way to development and administration.

OPEIU is a union that is attempting to form here at my County. We (IT) are being grouped with about 140 other employees (all sorts of jobs outside of IT) who are not in management positions, and being given the opportunity to vote to join the union.

What do you think, what would you do and what would you ask?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[mbalent]

Why on earth would I want to join a union? Just so some non-productive, non-qualified slacker can keep his job? Or maybe so I can take a pay cut (union dues) so the fat cats at the local can get out of doing anything even resembling a job (and drive a new car every year too)?

I am sorry if you work for a company (or boss) which expects 60 hour weeks or doesn't pay you what you are worth. I've been there too and left those places long ago. Unions only serve to 'level the playing field' which is fine if you are at or below average.

My $.02

 

[carp]

I used to be in the Teamsters. They were very prompt and knew where to find me when it was time to collect dues. When I needed them, they had no idea of who I was. My father was in the IAW and my father-in-law was in a union. They both hated it - some other union would go on strike and they would be out of work in a "sympathy" strike. It got to the point where they would lose about two months of pay every year because somebody was striking.
Bottom line: the only way I would join a union is if the ONLY alternative was unemployment!

 

[bludonda]

I'm a Web Coding Technician for a State government agency and am in the union here (OPEU/SEIU). I have also been in the Communications Workers of America union (CTA) in the past. My experience with the CTA was similar to carp's above, and I wasn't impressed. But that doesn't mean I'm opposed to unions or being a member of one.

Mbalent's self-serving comments above are far from helpful for your situation - certainly worth much less than his going rate - and show how uninformed he is on the subject. I have no idea why he'd want, or need, to be a member of any union, which may be the topic for some other discussion thread, so we'll let it go at that. Hopefully, I can provide some more helpful feedback.

Being a member of a government employee union is a little bit different than some of the other unions in that your employers or bosses are the taxpayer of the city, county, state or federal government. These can be the most fickle, ignorant, and demanding bosses you'll ever have. Your union is the only advocate you have when the call goes out for tax cuts and smaller government from political pundits or the right-wing zealots. As a government employee you don't have a say in any private sector employees' pay, benefits, etc., but they certainly have a big say in yours! Most of the active union officers I've met so far are other government employees also, with hard working jobs from janitorial to high-tech IT, and families to support just like everyone else in the "real world".

When I was hired, I was informed that joining the union was voluntary, however, because the union negotiated the benefits and pay I was receiving even as a non-union employee, there was a "fair pay" deduction from my paycheck that went to the union that was pretty much equal to the dues I'd pay as a member anyway, which may be the case if the union is successful in organizing your group.

The best advice I got while I was trying to decide on joining or not was, "Well, since I'm paying the dues I might as well have a say in what goes on." I joined the union.

The bottom line is that, if you like the work you do, the pay and benefits you get for that work, and would like some level of security for that work, then perhaps a union is the best protection you'll have for keeping them. Remember, government is politics, what other political option do you have for job security besides a union?

I hope this helps. I'm not a union officer or flak and I don't have any stake in whether you join or not, I just wanted to give you some useful information to your sincere request for help.

 

[ctarr]

bludonda, thank you for your open view. First let me announce the results, 54 yes, 67 no. So OPEIU is not in. Is that good for me? Right now yes but, perhaps in the future it might be better to have the union available.

The reason I'm happy they did not get elected is that Florida is a right to work state. So, I could be union, pay my dues (or not) but, they really can not do anything to help me out. The County Council decides on the pay raises and that's the final say.

Our sherrif's office, correctional officers and firefighters all have their own unions. Which they should, their jobs require a lot of them and they need all the help they can get in attaining better wages, working conditions, and over all support. But, they cannot argue for higher wages because, as I said the County Council has the final say. Our County Council is all anti-union and none have a union background so why would they listen to the unions and give higher wages. In 5 - 10 years our Council will change and perhaps someone will have a good history with one union or another and be a little more open to allowing the union employees better pay and healthcare.

 

[Kjonnnn]

There are so many qualified IT people here in chicago, that if a union decided "strike" for demands... I could see them easily being replaced.
Now I used to belong to a union when I worked in the steel mill, so I do see their benefits.

 

[bludonda]

Craig,

Labor unions have gotten themselves into a lot of trouble in the past few decades because of poor management and negotiating strategies and are paying for it now through low membership and bad PR (Having highly public internal power struggles and in-fighting, doesn't help either.) The era of Republican Presidential administrations (Regan/Bush) took advantage of this and now many unions are struggling to survive.

Unions are used to politics in an industrial economy and the traditional workforce vs. management adversarial relationships within that environment. In our current information based economy, unions have had a hard time making inroads into high-tech areas because the employees in those fields are generally highly educated, well paid and well treated by the management. Obviously, most IT professionals are loath to be associated with a union, and unions don't seem to have much too offer them. This may change sometime in the future if the current trend of mega-mergers, followed by mega-layoffs, and management focus on higher investor returns rather than profits from quality products and services continues. And with thousands of unemployed or under-employed IT workers out there and the popularity with management of using "off-shore" outsourcing and the H1-B visa program for cheaper technical expertise, I would think that a fairly innovative and creative union organizer could make significant strides in organizing in the technology industry. But there have to be mind-set changes on both sides of the equation to really make that happen.

I'm a member of a union now because, as I stated in my previous message, it was a pre-existing aspect of my job, and it made sense in this situation, given all the parameters. But, I probably wouldn't be a member if the situation was different and I was employed in the private sector. Would I vote to join a union as a technical professional? Again, that would depend on the situation at the time. It sounds like you made a valid choice in your case, given the anti-union climate of your state's government.

Speaking of which - who's the Governor of Florida these days??? Say No More! Good luck anyway!

 

[sleipnir214]

I'm in Louisiana -- we're right-to-work, including the right to not join a union, even if the shop is. I have never been the member of a union, and never intend to be. Labor unions, in theory, are a good thing. It's their practises I abhor.

Thank you, bludonda, for spouting the union line. Frankly, though, the bad press of the unions is largely the unions fault. Headlines like, "Union Forced to Refund Illegally Seized Dues", "Union Faces Unfair Labor Practice Suit After Illegally Firing Worker", and "Employees Hit Union with Unfair Labor Practice Charges" probably have more to do with it than anything. ______________________________________________________________________
Never forget that we are
made of the stuff of stars

 

[bludonda]

For others out there who would appreciate more information regarding unionization of IT professionals from a respected source, see the August 5, 2002 issue of eWeek magazine, page 41 for an article on the subject by Lisa Vaas. Also currently available online at:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,436741,00.asp

In spite of some of the flaming rhetoric posted on this discussion thread, I think it's an interesting topic that has important implications for our profession and the industry as a whole.

I also wish to correct an error in one of my previous posting stating that I was a member of the CTA; I meant CWA, the Communications Workers of America. I have no idea what CTA might be and plead brain cramp for the error. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[ctarr]

bludonda, I saw that article as well on eweek and had mixed feelings. Yes, they are right, most people (at least meyself) feel Unions are for blue-collor workers. And we (IT) feel that we don't need their help.

If your not happy with the current work situation, leave and get another job. That use to be so easy. But, today the market stinks. We keep getting more responsiblity, more projects, more languages/applications to learn and the same or less money.

So I am wondering if more IT folks will be loooking for some type of Union backing in the future. I think that it will take serveral years (possibly 10) to get the Union world ready to effectively help us and or to work with us.

 

[CajunCenturion]

A union within the IT world is an interesting idea. But when you consider the diversity within out field, doesn't that work contrary to general philosophy of a union? If this union were to go on strike, just who would you be striking against - not only are we diverse in our respective job areas, we are also quite diverse in who we work for. I fail to see the power of collective bargaining in this situation. Unions certainly have a done a good job in preventing management from taking unreasonable advantage of the work force, but that generally is when you can target the offender.

I think professional associations are a great idea, but I'm not quite sure how a union would work in this industry. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[ctarr]

That's exactly how I feel. I have not been told how this Union would benefit the folks I work with.

Here's the issue a group of people outside of IT (Library workers) wanted to form. The Union took the entire workforce here at the County and said if you are not management at any level (even project manager) then you can (and will) be in our Union. Thus we said wait, how this help us. And so far only the usual sales pitch has been given, and that's why we were fighting against the Union. We have no idea what benefits we will see if any.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I don't see any benefits in our IT industry - because of its diversity, and with respect to the Library workers - its much the same thing.

This certainly sounds like a marketing ploy on the part of the union to increase membership, and thus more does money, without virtually any responsiblity to the new membership. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[schase]

I have never been in a union - but I did work for a small airline (regional) when Pan-Am and Eastern hit. Even today there are Eastern pilots who were months without work - the union provided some money - but for many not enough. And as time grew on the Mechanics strike-turn-into-pilot strike grew tough financially for the employees, many crossed. Not long after that, other airlines had an unofficial paper with names of those who crossed - if you were one of them, you did not get a jump seat.

Nor could they find work except in the corporate sector - or perhaps Continential. Bad thing here was the Owner of Eastern wanted to dissolve the airline. - not much to combat with that.

And I have seen others be very much protected by a Union (electrical field) - and I've seen some who were targeted for a strike - easier to win for the Officials.

I've also seen airlines with Gulfstream 4's - and a request by pilots & passengers not to take pictures of the tail. Just incase one of their members saw how their money was spent. (this was a family vacation spot for an official)

And I've seen some work very hard, and be rewarded fairly for their effort.

good and bad. For me no, for someone else there is no other way to work. "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

-Adm. James Farragut

Stuart

 

[bludonda]

It's interesting to see how other IT and technical folks out there feel about unions.

We have yet to hear from anyone on this forum who has joined a union that was directly organized around their situation to see how they feel or what their experience and thoughts on the issue are. I'm waiting for the next issue of eWeek to arrive and see what responses the editor got to his invitation to respond to the issue. What I'm seeing and hearing on this issue here is pretty much centered around personal experiences and attitudes, mostly by non organized professionals or ones that were in some union in the past.

As I said before, my situation now is different in that I'm a member of a government employee union and not a employee in a technology business or industry, so my rationales, reasons and experiences for joining are different but may have been relevant to the original question posted on this forum.

I agree, with almost all of the assertions that unions have yet to come up with any benefits compelling enough to motivate workers in technology industries above the level of production to become members other than as a survival tool to wrangle with management during hard times. My prior experience with the CWA and the subsequent pathetic behavior of other unions over the intervening decades has done little to boost my opinion of union management to this day. The key word in that last sentence is "management" though. I think that there is a definite need and purpose for unions as a political power for the working people of the U.S. and the world, but their management has been rife with sloth and poor judgement at best and outright criminal despotism at worst. The fact is though, that a lot of the conditions and benefits in the workplace we now take for granted were not instituted by corporate management out of compassion for their workforce, but were the result of political and social action by organized labor.

What I think we might be seeing though, is a developing trend that may make the "technology professional" of today the "labor unit" of tomorrow, with the tools and technology becoming more available to the less trained or experienced, and where programmers or IT technicians may be as cheap and plentiful as strong backs and weak minds were during most of the last century. I know that what I'm hearing from friends and family in high-tech jobs and industry and reading about in IT trade publications supports this possible trend. If this scenario were to become reality, then only some sort of organizational effort by the workforce, whatever skill level they be, would be necessary to keep the managerial abuses of the past from reoccurring.

However, that is a tomorrow - a possibility - things could change. We may again have a situation where a similitude of Moore's Law applies to the economy and workforce and there seems to be an unending need for highly trained and experienced professionals to handle the exponential growth.

Or I may need to cut down on my double shots of espresso and ginko biloba.

What do you think?

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"What? Me worry?" - Alfred E. Newman

 

[svolpe]

I know that this thread is almost a month old, but I just wanted to thank bludonda for his insight on a issue that confronts all IT professionals. One thing he said that really hit hard was...

What I think we might be seeing though, is a developing trend that may make the "technology professional" of today the "labor unit" of tomorrow, with the tools and technology becoming more available to the less trained or experienced, and where programmers or IT technicians may be as cheap and plentiful as strong backs and weak minds were during most of the last century.

You have to wonder why there seems to be a constant push to raise the H1-B Visa ceiling calling for more and more foreign workers in the name of an IT professional shortage. What a bunch of ?!*!. There are many, many qualified IT professionals already in the US who are currently unemployed.

As far as the union issue is concerned, I haven't been in the situation where I would have to make a decision on joining or not so I'm not sure what I would do. As said all throughout this thread, I would need to know exactly how such a move would benefit me and my fellow co-workers. But again, I want to point out something else that bludonda said...

The fact is though, that a lot of the conditions and benefits in the workplace we now take for granted were not instituted by corporate management out of compassion for their workforce, but were the result of political and social action by organized labor.

This is very relevant to all American workers and as such, people must remember what things were like 100 years ago. Once again, thank you bludonda for your insight on a very controversial matter.

 

[teraable]

I work for a ver large Telcom company. I started out as a union member but later joined the IT staff, which is management. Many, many moons ago the IT staff was union. But because of the possibility of a strike, the IT folks were converted to management. Afterall, we're the ones that make our network work and they didn't want us out on strike. The union has been beneficial. Because of it we have (or should I say had) many wonderful benefits. But in this constant cost-cutting world, it's the management employees that have suffered the most as far as benefits. Our benefits can be slashed at a whim, whereas all union benefits are negotiated through the contract.

 

[elizabeth]

I've found this a very interesting dicussion too. I think a union for IT folks would be useful only if they employed trained negotiators. Many of the problems I've heard about were due to poor negotiation skills. The people who have the image skills seem to get all the management positions, regardless of their management skills.

My take on this is that many IT workers can "vote with their feet" if they don't like anagement practices, and find a new job. But after a certain number of moves, I think, why should I have to go through the stress and costs of leaving friends/starting over/relocating/going back to 2 week vacation/starting over on 401k and pension benefits?

I would consider belonging to a IS/IT-only professional union that provided benefits of vacation/sick time pay, unemployment contributions, health care, 401k, pension, etc. This would help reduce the distinction between employee and contractor. Then I could more effectively vote with my feet, and my employers could more effectively manage their work force.

 

[bludonda]

Wow! Thanks for the praise y'all! Now I'll have to buy a larger size hat!

I think this has turned into a very good thread on an interesting topic. I'm glad to see people putting their sincere thoughts and opinions on this forum!

I did a little informal polling about the subject at a recent family gathering as a several of my relatives are employed or employ folks in the IT/high-tech industry. Here's a summary of their thoughts:

My oldest brother, who has worked in the industry all his professional life and is now a section manager at "The Worlds Biggest Computer Manufacturer", (after a recent, highly public merger), has seen what was once an innovative and egalitarian corporate philosophy and an implicit agreement between the company and it's employees regarding treatment and security in turn for loyal and productive work at all levels, pretty much trashed. Now his 20+ years of faithful service is in jeopardy as his status puts him in the crosshairs of HR mandates to cull the ranks and shrink the payroll to meet management/investor profit expectations.

In spite of his working for the company's most profitable product division, his proximity to a comfortable retirement actually makes him a prime target for VSI (Voluntary Severance Incentive) or early retirement offers, or, failing that, mandatory severance. The company can then save several thousands of dollars by taking him out even just a few years short of his planned retirement. Of course, he stands to lose that same amount if forced to retire prematurely. He's hoping that he can dodge this fate for the next few years, but his stress level has definitely escalated several notches in the process. His wife works in the same company and is in a similar situation.

He was of the opinion that, indeed, the current conditions could favor an organizational effort by a union into the IT/high-tech work sector. However, he also stated, as many in this forum have, that his prior experience with unions, both as a member and as an outside observer have been less than favorable. One of his major gripes was the added level of inefficiency in getting even simple tasks done that he encountered in these experiences.

Another relative who I polled, has also been in a union of some sort in the past, but now owns and runs a high-tech company that employs a hundred or so people. His opinion is that many large companies have lost sight of their foundations and in order to manage their vastness have commodified one of their prime assets, their employees. He believes the relatively small size of his company is the reason his relationship with his employees remains good. (I'm not sure how his employees feel, though.)

He too feels that there is a genuine need for unions to help employees fight managerial abuses and help workers maintain the security of their wages and benefits, but he also laments the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of union management that he has experienced when he was in a union at one time and when dealing with them in other businesses situations.

So, my conclusions from this admittedly unscientific inquiry are pretty much the same as we have seen stated here. A union for IT folk would have to be a horse of a very different color than what now exists in order to attract and work effectively with the current and future workforce and management, and obviously, there are several socioeconomic and technical factors that need to come into play too. IT employees, because they are generally so well educated and committed to quality (I hope), will demand a much higher level of accountability and service from any union that represents them. They used to receive respect and accountability from their corporate management (and in many places still do,) but that relationship is rapidly changing these days and not necessarily for the better, which brings this whole union issue into discussion.

So here's some questions for anyone out there who is in IT:
[ul][li]What kind of union do you think would be effective for IT employees?[/li]
[li]What are your thoughts on the kind of representation, protections and service you'd find attractive in a union?[/li]
[li]How do you think it should be organized to deal with the diversity of the industry work force?[/li][/ul]
Those are the only ones I can think of right now. If you have some to add, feel free to post them.

This has been a fascinating discussion thread that was started by a simple question, and I always enjoy seeing what new ideas and comments have been posted!

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"We're all bozos on this bus..." ~ Firesign Theater

 

[DonQuichote]

Nice story to add to this discussion:

In Holland, there has been a small 'strike' in the IT sector a few months ago. This strike consisted of a large group of IT folks taking the same day off. Some of them were threatened by their employers that they would loose their jobs.

I think we definitely need a union. The diversity does not need to be a problem, though. There are clinical / medical unions as well and they support a large number of different people as well.

Best regards