princecharm
ISP
everybody tells me here Novell is old-fashioned
Is it true?
Is it true?
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novell is old-fasioned? 2
- Thread starter princecharm
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We use Novell servers for file and print services at our clients because they require virtually no maintenance. Our customers are mostly small businesses that are quite happy to have high speed internet access from their desktop through a firewall. We do use Microsoft servers for some purposes - like Terminal Servers - so it isn't like we are anti anybody. We have used Novell since version 2.0a and tend to stay with whatever works. If being old fashioned means we can provide what the customer wants while minimizing support costs, we qualify.
I have heard this type of comment for years and have wondered what Novell are doing on many occasions. Does WordPerfect ring a bell? Then I look at an old 3.12 server that has been chugging away for years with only the need to add bigger hard drives and say 'So what!'.
Bryan
I have heard this type of comment for years and have wondered what Novell are doing on many occasions. Does WordPerfect ring a bell? Then I look at an old 3.12 server that has been chugging away for years with only the need to add bigger hard drives and say 'So what!'.
Bryan
More than likely you hear this because NetWare is command line, so compared to the Windows GUI it is old-fashioned.
Microshaft Winblows is the only NOS in the x86 market that gives you a GUI that you can't unload. All other NOS's in the x86 market have a GUI, including NetWare, and all of them allow you to unload the GUI. Why on earth would you want to spend valuable system resources on a GUI for a server that sits in a closet? I sometimes wonder if the Windows NOS would perform better if M$ would give us the ability to unload the GUI when the server is doing it's job. Load it when you needed it, unload it when you don't. Microsoftians consider anything command line to be old-fashioned because they belive a GUI is more advanced. Screw the GUI, look at the kernel and managment.
Brent Schmidt CNE,Network +![[atom]](/data/assets/smilies/atom.gif "[atom] [atom]")
Senior Network Engineer
Keep IT Simple![[rofl]](/data/assets/smilies/rofl.gif "[rofl] [rofl]")
Microshaft Winblows is the only NOS in the x86 market that gives you a GUI that you can't unload. All other NOS's in the x86 market have a GUI, including NetWare, and all of them allow you to unload the GUI. Why on earth would you want to spend valuable system resources on a GUI for a server that sits in a closet? I sometimes wonder if the Windows NOS would perform better if M$ would give us the ability to unload the GUI when the server is doing it's job. Load it when you needed it, unload it when you don't. Microsoftians consider anything command line to be old-fashioned because they belive a GUI is more advanced. Screw the GUI, look at the kernel and managment.
Brent Schmidt CNE,Network +
Senior Network Engineer
Keep IT Simple
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- #4
The MCSE consulting drones want you to think that NW is old fashioned because their profit margins for supporting Windows servers are MUCH higher.
I work for a large consulting company and we choose to do what's best for our clients. Hence, we push Novell products whenever we can and only look at MS products when the customer has a specific business need that requires MS products.
At any rate, let's look at how "old fashioned" NetWare is:
-- STILL the fastest file/print server on the planet
-- With the web services, I can administer my NW 6 servers from anywhere.
-- NW6 allows you to build a 2 node cluster out of the box WITHOUT buying any "advanced server" product
-- NetWare is still the most secure, stable, and scalable NOS in the planet
-- NW servers can perform more than one task per server. The best practices for MS servers is to have a server for each task/program
-- NDS is the defacto standard by which other directories are measured and found lacking
-- Native File Access allows users of Windows, Mac, & Unix boxes to keep their files on a NetWare server without any special client
-- Using iFolder & NetStorage, a user can get to his/her files from anywhere through a web browser
-- NetWare is built upon a foundation of open standards. Unlike *some* companies, Novell hasn't co-opted a standard and bastardized it; they have committed to interoperability
-- NetWare doesn't let you play solitaire on your server
At any rate, you are wise for sticking with NetWare. ------------
Certified in absolutely nothing
I work for a large consulting company and we choose to do what's best for our clients. Hence, we push Novell products whenever we can and only look at MS products when the customer has a specific business need that requires MS products.
At any rate, let's look at how "old fashioned" NetWare is:
-- STILL the fastest file/print server on the planet
-- With the web services, I can administer my NW 6 servers from anywhere.
-- NW6 allows you to build a 2 node cluster out of the box WITHOUT buying any "advanced server" product
-- NetWare is still the most secure, stable, and scalable NOS in the planet
-- NW servers can perform more than one task per server. The best practices for MS servers is to have a server for each task/program
-- NDS is the defacto standard by which other directories are measured and found lacking
-- Native File Access allows users of Windows, Mac, & Unix boxes to keep their files on a NetWare server without any special client
-- Using iFolder & NetStorage, a user can get to his/her files from anywhere through a web browser
-- NetWare is built upon a foundation of open standards. Unlike *some* companies, Novell hasn't co-opted a standard and bastardized it; they have committed to interoperability
-- NetWare doesn't let you play solitaire on your server
At any rate, you are wise for sticking with NetWare. ------------
Certified in absolutely nothing
Psychoid
NetWare is still the most secure, stable, and scalable NOS in the planet
I'll have to second that fact. I have never had a Windows server stay up this long without a reboot.
david e
*end users are just like computers, some you can work with...others just need a simple reBOOTing to fix their problems.*
NetWare is still the most secure, stable, and scalable NOS in the planet
I'll have to second that fact. I have never had a Windows server stay up this long without a reboot.
david e
*end users are just like computers, some you can work with...others just need a simple reBOOTing to fix their problems.*
Kind of makes you wonder where people get theri info from. I have been in this industry now for 12 years and I can honestly admit that Novell does it right. MS made a lot of empty promises and their OS is sooo unstable. It literally takes a person hours upon hours to make NT work right and even then its hit and miss.
And to think companies are starting to rip out Microsoft servers and switching back to Novell. However, MS does have its place in the world, but I would tend to lean toward a Novell or Linux solution where I can before implementing an MS solution.
Mark C. Greenwood, CNE
m_jgreenwood@yahoo.com
With more than 10 years experience to share.
And to think companies are starting to rip out Microsoft servers and switching back to Novell. However, MS does have its place in the world, but I would tend to lean toward a Novell or Linux solution where I can before implementing an MS solution.
Mark C. Greenwood, CNE
m_jgreenwood@yahoo.com
With more than 10 years experience to share.
Well, considering that people somehow consider Linux to be "Futuristic", I don't know why Netware would be considered "old fashioned". I just brought on a new intern and one of the first things he said when exposed to Netware for the first time was "This reminds me of unix".
Microsoft's great for running certain things. The biggest difference I've seen between Novell and Microsoft is, each Microsoft server can only run a few services. Netware servers on the other hand can host a multitude of services (on a great deal less hardware most of the time).
My only big complaint about Netware is network printing. I feel Microsoft's got them beat, there.
Microsoft's great for running certain things. The biggest difference I've seen between Novell and Microsoft is, each Microsoft server can only run a few services. Netware servers on the other hand can host a multitude of services (on a great deal less hardware most of the time).
My only big complaint about Netware is network printing. I feel Microsoft's got them beat, there.
Well with the IP Printing well into swing on the novell side, I feel that it is just a matter of time until Novell has all the fancyness of true IP printing. Wait, what am I talking about, they already do, its called IPPRINT. <--- and to add a new printer, all I need to do is open a browser window and click on the specific printer I want and it installs no quaestions asked. Novell has made vast improvements and NDPS well, lets just say that that service will still have a need but IP Printing is and will be the wave of the future. Mark C. Greenwood, CNE
m_jgreenwood@yahoo.com
With more than 10 years experience to share.
m_jgreenwood@yahoo.com
With more than 10 years experience to share.
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Well, I've worked with Novell O/S's for 10 years and MS for about 5, and I would not advise anyone to move to Novell from MS Windows at the moment. The management tools in NW6 are a bit of a shambles - you can perform some tasks in NWAdmin, some through web manager, some through Console One (and there's a different set of things you can/can't do with the workstation and server versions of C1) but you'll need all 3 at one time or another. Some things are simply bizarre - did you know you can delete a volume instantly and irrecoverably by clicking on one button? The documentation is a joke too. Far too little useful info. It also took literally months to get Novell's eval CDs, their (UK) customer service needs a kick!
The issue with compressed NSS volumes corrupting was pretty bad too.
A real shame, because NDS absolutely rocks and the access-from-anywhere file and print via web browsers will be the way forward. When Novell gets it all together it will hopefully put it back in the #1 slot, however I can't help thinking that they have lost the way somewhere.
My opinions only.
Pete
The issue with compressed NSS volumes corrupting was pretty bad too.
A real shame, because NDS absolutely rocks and the access-from-anywhere file and print via web browsers will be the way forward. When Novell gets it all together it will hopefully put it back in the #1 slot, however I can't help thinking that they have lost the way somewhere.
My opinions only.
Pete
gillis
IS-IT--Management
- Mar 4, 2001
- 196
Typically I'm considered very opinionated - yet I find myself agreeing with BOTH Psychoid and CQ - on the one hand you can't argue Netware's reliability and security; yet I too struggle with the documentation and admin tools
I actually came onto the site today to request comments on use of ConsoleOne but had to look at this thread first.
I can start NWAdmin, make changes and close it in the time it takes for ConsoleOne to open on my desktop...and then I still have difficulty finding what I want. I'm sure part of that is my admitted reluctance to learn something new and failure to put a lot of time into it.
Still haven't got iFolder or Web Services running after 8 months because it simply isn't intuitive and can't seem to find enough time to drop everything else and study it.
Yet I've been using Novell since 1988 and wouldn't change to MS unless the Exec's demanded it. Truly sometimes a love/hate relationship but still the pro's outweigh the con's.
gillis
I actually came onto the site today to request comments on use of ConsoleOne but had to look at this thread first.
I can start NWAdmin, make changes and close it in the time it takes for ConsoleOne to open on my desktop...and then I still have difficulty finding what I want. I'm sure part of that is my admitted reluctance to learn something new and failure to put a lot of time into it.
Still haven't got iFolder or Web Services running after 8 months because it simply isn't intuitive and can't seem to find enough time to drop everything else and study it.
Yet I've been using Novell since 1988 and wouldn't change to MS unless the Exec's demanded it. Truly sometimes a love/hate relationship but still the pro's outweigh the con's.
gillis
In all honesty, I have to agree with you guys about the management tools. I always hated NWAdmin because it was a memory hog & ConsoleOne because it is slow (but it has sped up greatly since the 5.x days). I believe that Novell's future goal is to bring all administration to a web browser. Hopefully, it will be a better answer.
Even though their admin tools have issues, there are a few reasons why I've always, and will continue to, prefer Novell products.
1. They usually work pretty darn well once installed & configured.
2. With the exception of ArcServe, nothing can take down a NetWare server.
3. NDS/eDirectory is light years ahead of anything else
4. Novell has very cool products. Granted, some are half-baked for the first version, but they are almost always cutting edge.
5. Novell doesn't repeatedly try to screw their customers with ^%&^&$ed up licensing schemes or forced upgrades.
6. Reliability, scalability, and performance
7. Novell uses open standards and does not try to bastardize or steal them.
8. Novell is committed to interoperating with systems from other vendors and to integrate them with NDS
9. I like their new commercials that they've been showing on the History Channel
------------
Bill
Consultant / Network Engineer
CNE, CCNA
Even though their admin tools have issues, there are a few reasons why I've always, and will continue to, prefer Novell products.
1. They usually work pretty darn well once installed & configured.
2. With the exception of ArcServe, nothing can take down a NetWare server.
3. NDS/eDirectory is light years ahead of anything else
4. Novell has very cool products. Granted, some are half-baked for the first version, but they are almost always cutting edge.
5. Novell doesn't repeatedly try to screw their customers with ^%&^&$ed up licensing schemes or forced upgrades.
6. Reliability, scalability, and performance
7. Novell uses open standards and does not try to bastardize or steal them.
8. Novell is committed to interoperating with systems from other vendors and to integrate them with NDS
9. I like their new commercials that they've been showing on the History Channel
------------
Bill
Consultant / Network Engineer
CNE, CCNA
Came across this thread while doing a search for something else. I know it's over a year-and-a-half old, but:
Novell is far from old-fashioned. Have you seen them lately? They have SuSE Linux, they have the Ximian project, they have the MONO project. eDirectory is still the best directory service available, and it runs on a bunch of platforms.
The next release of their flagship OS is called OES - Open Enterprise Server, and the emphasis is on open.
Novell SuSE Linux Enterprise 9 is getting stellar reviews across the industry.
You can run "dot net" programs on Novell platforms now, because of MONO.
If anything, they're more cutting-edge than most other software vendors, including Microsoft.
Old-fashioned, indeed!
Novell is far from old-fashioned. Have you seen them lately? They have SuSE Linux, they have the Ximian project, they have the MONO project. eDirectory is still the best directory service available, and it runs on a bunch of platforms.
The next release of their flagship OS is called OES - Open Enterprise Server, and the emphasis is on open.
Novell SuSE Linux Enterprise 9 is getting stellar reviews across the industry.
You can run "dot net" programs on Novell platforms now, because of MONO.
If anything, they're more cutting-edge than most other software vendors, including Microsoft.
Old-fashioned, indeed!
The "Novell is old-fashioned" line really pertains to NetWare, and is correct. We demand far more than file and print services from our servers these days- database, web, application, etc. NetWare does its job extremely well, but its limited scope has been its downfall.
I've been a CNE for 10 years or so, using NetWare for about 15, and applaud Novell's decision to buy their way into the Linux area, but remember that SUSE and Mono existed long before Novell's involvment. I look forward to "NetWare" becoming a real server OS, and Linux can give it that chance.
I've been a CNE for 10 years or so, using NetWare for about 15, and applaud Novell's decision to buy their way into the Linux area, but remember that SUSE and Mono existed long before Novell's involvment. I look forward to "NetWare" becoming a real server OS, and Linux can give it that chance.
LawnBoy
MIS
- Mar 12, 2003
- 2,881
I've been running databases and user apps on Netware since version 2.15 (that'd make it around 13 years). Ok, so Netware didn't really get into web servers/access until version 5.1, but even that is at least 5 years old.
Your statement of 'limited scope' is a joke.
Your statement of 'limited scope' is a joke.
I have yet to see J.D. Edwards or Peoplesoft run on NetWare. Financial systems (quotes, trading) don't run on NetWare. Oracle dropped NetWare as a platform, announcing it in a session at Brainshare 2000. I'd be interested to know what user apps were running on the server in v2.15, when VLM was the only way.
At my former company I had developed a web-base report distibution server on NW4.11 to handle mainframe-generated financial reports. It worked great. I still don't think NetWare is the best platform for large-scale applications, web or otherwise. Windows isn't the best at everything; neither is NetWare. I've found that a lot of effort gets expended trying to ensure that something works with NetWare rather than having it "just work".
At my former company I had developed a web-base report distibution server on NW4.11 to handle mainframe-generated financial reports. It worked great. I still don't think NetWare is the best platform for large-scale applications, web or otherwise. Windows isn't the best at everything; neither is NetWare. I've found that a lot of effort gets expended trying to ensure that something works with NetWare rather than having it "just work".
LawnBoy
MIS
- Mar 12, 2003
- 2,881
I'd be interested to know what user apps were running on the server in v2.15, when VLM was the only way."
Well, it was a basic database application, users ran a DOS-based front end (from disk-less workstations) to modify and query data in a Btrieve database. Written by Telex.
Well, it was a basic database application, users ran a DOS-based front end (from disk-less workstations) to modify and query data in a Btrieve database. Written by Telex.
ITsmyfault
IS-IT--Management
How is netware old fashioned? It has far more advanced clustering, real SMP, memory management (incl shmem), a much better file system in NSS, NFA, is integrated with the best directory service available, runs many standards based apps (mysql, apache, php, perl, java) so it can do lots more than ever before.. plus offering all the usual printing, dns/dhcp.. and it's all locked down with SSL, has no (known) viruses, malware or spyware to attack it, arguably the best security platform short of some custom linux distros.. and it's built like a mainframe OS, stage loading and all so it can be fixed in practically any situation (reinstalling is not fixing. It's failure IMHO) And it's faster and less expensive. If this is "old fashioned" i want more of it!
I too applaud their embrace of linux, but it does not mean that Netware is 'legacy' at all. And until Linux gets NSS, it's not worth migrating to honestly, again, just MHO. (it gets NSS early next yr)
I haven't been around 15 years, but IMHO Netware has been a real server OS a lot longer than Windows has. I remember Windows 3.1 for workgroups, NT 3.51, NT4 and the rest. Everything that really matters in our datacenter is either on Solaris or Netware. That's no accident.
I too applaud their embrace of linux, but it does not mean that Netware is 'legacy' at all. And until Linux gets NSS, it's not worth migrating to honestly, again, just MHO. (it gets NSS early next yr)
I haven't been around 15 years, but IMHO Netware has been a real server OS a lot longer than Windows has. I remember Windows 3.1 for workgroups, NT 3.51, NT4 and the rest. Everything that really matters in our datacenter is either on Solaris or Netware. That's no accident.
ITsmyfault
IS-IT--Management
re: quotes/trading.. not sure what the point is? Thomson (ILX/ThomsonsOne) all run on (ick..) SCO.. I suspect they'll be ported to linux shortly.. I mean who would want to give those people money on purpose? ILX actually works over IP or IPX btw. We originally put in ILX bc Bridge was unreliable and got crushed on the market open.. (go windows!) We needed a 2nd system.. Autex runs on Solaris. Reuters(Bridge) & Baseline run only on Windows. Funny, the 'nix servers have far fewer problems...
Bloomberg terminals ran on both Solaris (for Merril Lynch IIRC) and Windows but BB was under a lot of pressure to drop solaris port.. (my rep turned pale when I told her we wanted to run it..) so now they are windows only afaik. I am busy yelling at them for a linux port. I am sure I'm not alone.
no, none run on netware. does that mean anything? Probably only that there aren't as many developers for Netware, it's harder to write NLM's and did not catch on as a platform.
Is windows good at some things? Yes, absolutely. We run it here as well. But the architecture is fakakta (cannot seperate apps from OS files!?.. user permissioning on PC is crap.. registry is a SPOF and a mess to boot.. & don't get me started on IE...)
ILX actually works over IP or IPX btw. We originally put in ILX bc Bridge was unreliable and got crushed on the market open.. (go windows!) We needed a 2nd system.. Autex runs on Solaris. Reuters(Bridge) & Baseline run only on Windows. Funny, the 'nix servers have far fewer problems... Bloomberg terminals ran on both Solaris (for Merril Lynch IIRC) and Windows but BB was under a lot of pressure to drop solaris port.. (my rep turned pale when I told her we wanted to run it..) so now they are windows only afaik. I am busy yelling at them for a linux port. I am sure I'm not alone.
no, none run on netware. does that mean anything? Probably only that there aren't as many developers for Netware, it's harder to write NLM's and did not catch on as a platform.
Is windows good at some things? Yes, absolutely. We run it here as well. But the architecture is fakakta (cannot seperate apps from OS files!?.. user permissioning on PC is crap.. registry is a SPOF and a mess to boot.. & don't get me started on IE...)
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